"And I discovered that as a journalist if you don't have a pitch or a story to share with the big boss on Monday morning, you didn't have a job. What's important for entrepreneurs to realize is that journalists aren't just helping you with your business, you are helping them keep their job. Because if you don't pitch your story, they don't have anything to tell their boss on a Monday morning." - Adela Hussain
That's one of my favorite pieces of insight from my discussion with Adela, founder of Startups & Co and my guest this week on the show. The first thing that Adela teaches her students in her course, Pitch to Press, is that you as an entrepreneur are keeping journalists/podcasters, etc in their jobs - they need your stories and expertise!
The second thing she teaches her students is that when they're pitching to anyone, they have to lead with the story and not their ego. Mention what you've noticed or learned from their work and why your specific topic would be of interest to their readers/listeners.
Tune in for the full scoop of how to pitch your business to press! Connect with Adela on her website and Instagram.
Welcome to the Small Business Big mindset podcast, where we dive into tactical strategies to grow your business and make an impact on this world. A huge part of success is keeping your mindset and vision on track. So this is a major part of our process. And this podcast, let's do this welcome to the Small Business Big mindset podcast this week we have Adela Hussain, founder of startups and Co. She is a master of helping you pitch your business to people that don't know you yet. Welcome at Dallas. So excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much, Erin. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. I'm like, I need to know all the information you're gonna share. So I'm like selfishly booked, you know, you're gonna help out so many so many listeners today. So let's jump right. And so tell us a little bit about yourself. So your background and how you got started? Oh, I love this question. So I started off in corporate. So as a management consultant, here in London, I only have you seen the movie up in the air. Aaron, have you seen that George Clooney movie? i It does ring a bell. But I don't think I've seen the whole thing. So tell me. So it's about George Clooney and this character where he goes around the world firing people from their jobs, like going to departments like failing departments. And that was my life for seven years. Although I didn't actually do the firing. I was a consultant who would come in with a wheelie suitcase and a black suit. And people would dive into their cubicles and go Winter is coming, you know, and the department was was failing. And I would be there to identify the processes that you would keep going when the section of the department that no longer needs to exist, which would inevitably lead to people being fired. So yeah, I started off in what was called outsourcing in the technology sector, and then ended up saying, like, I'm tired of cutting costs, I want to be in parts of companies that are building things. So I ended up in strategy consulting, where, you know, I'd help an airline buy another airline, and it would be like a merger, or an acquisition, it was much more exciting. And then I got headhunted to work at Sky, which was huge, you know, amazing. I mean, it's such an incredible media company. And when I joined, they just got the European rights for Game of Thrones. So I was like, so excited to be working for this huge media company across Europe. And I was in charge of running a new department, where a new company actually where they were rolling out fiber in the ground, which was a bit techie, for telco. But yeah, I was doing that. And then I had my business idea of to build a fashion tech company. And I've always wanted to be my own entrepreneur, I think after doing corporate consulting for, you know, 1718 years by that point, I was just tired of helping other people grow their own businesses. And companies, I wanted to run my own company. And I come from a family of entrepreneurs. So for me, it was it was in my blood. And I had a business idea. I saw something that was happening in the US with fashion. And I said, You know what, I'm going to do it here in the UK and roll it out to Europe. And that's how I ended up in the world of entrepreneurship. So yeah, I started rolling out my business, my fashion company. And one thing I was very good at in that business, was getting it visible from day one. So I hired publicists to help me launch my product. And then I realized that the journalists I was working with, actually preferred hearing from me as a founder. So I ended up firing publicists and pitching my business myself to the media. And I landed 14 publications in 12 months, including Harvard Business Review. And it was very tiny business. I had, like, you know, five staff, but it was just very small. And we were actually working from my living room and all the stock was in my loft. It was very grassroots, you know, but you just media made such a huge impact. So yeah, it's an interesting trajectory. Well, and it's huge. So now, that's what you do, right? You help other companies get be visible and get into these, these impactful publications. So I want to really dive into that, because so many of us, myself included, need help in that area, right. It's like how my gosh, like, how do you? How do you get these guys to, to see you and I and I have heard people say, they're looking for you. They need, you know, companies to write about, they need new ideas, you know, to to really flush out in these articles, and they're trying to find people so you're like, Well, I'm right here. So it's like, yeah, what do you you know, how do you kind of help people get seen like when you're working with people, like are there like a few key things that you kind of guide people on to work on it first, or how do you work on it? Yeah, I love this great question. So one of the so typically, when I first start working with entrepreneurs and my group program pitch to press, they often come in with the sort of mindset that they're ambitious, they want to grow their business. But there is that slight hesitancy of Am I ready for media yet, you know, am I big enough yet. And interestingly, I always tell them that in my background, as a corporate, one of the companies I was transforming was Sky Sports News, and sky sport, which is a 24 hour news channel in the sporting world. And I used to sit there with all the journalists every Monday is something called the planning meeting. And I discovered that as a journalist, if you don't have a pitch, or your story to share with the big boss, on a Monday morning, at eight o'clock, when that meeting is happening, you didn't have a job. So actually, what's important for entrepreneurs to realize is that journalists aren't just helping you with your business, you are helping them keep their job. Because if you don't pitch your story, they don't have anything to tell their boss on a Monday morning, that these are the ideas I have. And these are things that need to go in the news channel, or the publication or the blog, or whatever media platform it is. So understanding that you are keeping your journalist, a journalist in their job, or even a podcaster or collaborator or entrepreneur, whoever you're pitching to show so important to realize that it's not just about you and your business, it's about them. So that's the first thing I teach my students, and actually, that often helps them with the mindset piece, right? The second thing I teach my students in pitcher press is whenever you start pitching to anybody, you have to lead with the story and not your ego. And what that means is don't start reaching out to a journalist and saying, Hey, here's my business, I run this amazing smoothie company got to try it is incredible. It's going to change the world. Actually, leaders leader the story and tell them, you know, I've been following you know, your your column, I noticed that you're talking about sustainability a lot. Did you know that the avocado using I'm making this up? By the way, did you know that avocados that are coming out of Mexico is causing a lot of deforestation, and that is so bad for the planet? Our company, what I do in my business is I create smoothies from sustainable, you know, avocados that are more supportive, kinder to the environment. And I know that you have been recently writing about the food industry, and you've got a real passion for sustainability. I saw you at that, you know, eco warriors conference last week. And I think this might be of interest, not just you, but to your readers. Would you like me to tell you more? I've just got a real I just made that pitch up. But can you see how that is leading with the value there was take your identifying to that journalist, you know, what were you think, what their readers are going to enjoy reading, you know, that they're talking about sustainability and environmental issues and the column being absolutely targeted and personalized in that pitch. So I always tell people leader story and not your ego. Does that make sense? Oh, 100%. And I love that because you've touched on so many things, right? It's like you, you started off with like a story that they can kind of visualize themselves in and take a stance. So they've already invested in then you're like, oh, and I saw that you attended this, you know, expo or conference, you know, so then you're like, oh, okay, so then you're connecting with them on a personal level, and they know that you've done their research because you're right, I get pitched all the time. For podcast guests and a, I prefer it when it's from the person and not from this like agency that they've hired to like, book, you know, I'm like, Okay, here we go. And then be when they have actually listened to my podcasts, I can actually say, Oh, I listened to the episode and I learned XYZ or instead of just saying I love your podcast, podcast, and I'm like, okay, you know, but they, they, they draw me in because they're like, Oh, I listen to this episode, or I saw this, I saw that you posted this, and I really appreciate it XYZ. You know, then I'm like, okay, you've got you got my attention, you know, and so yeah, 100% agree with all of that. I love that. You mentioned that Aaron, from the you know, the receiving end of receiving impersonal pitches because that's exactly what I teach. My students as I pitch to press is to quote the person's work. Because as a content creator, whether you're a journalist, a podcaster, a blogger, an influencer, you're putting out content regularly and the best compliment for you is, and correct me if I'm wrong here. But the biggest compliment for you is to be acknowledged that someone has listened to your book or someone has read your article. And you have to give evidence for that. Right? So I always tell my students in your pitch, complement their work and lead with a quote as well. Yeah, I mean, you want to feel like you're gonna tension. But yeah, and if you want them to feel like you want to feel like they want to be a part of what you're building, and there's value there, you don't want to feel like, Oh, let me get on this podcast, or let me get this article written about me to check that box, you know, because then it's just not valuable for anybody. So guess, yeah, you can tell immediately when someone is approaching a collaboration in a very transactional way. And it just doesn't land really, people don't like it, they want to be acknowledged, they want to be heard and seen, you know, especially when today's digital environment is so crowded. But unfortunately, I would say around 80% 90% of pitches that go out, are very impersonal. So if you're doing the right things, you actually stand out beautifully. Right, exactly. So what's next, like what you know, so what else do you kind of suggest? So you're like, This is how you approach them. Okay, so then it's like, oh, my gosh, what if they respond? Well, that's, that's really, really interesting. Yeah, because the biggest thing I tell my students, actually, the hardest thing for them is to hit send on a pitch, right? And if you can hit send on a pitch, then you've got over the mindset issue. Yeah, at that stage. Often, what happens is my students, they hit send on a pitch. And then and then they get a response. And they're almost shocked that they've got a response. So we had a student last year, who joined my program in November in the current cohort, and she had pitched a journalist, before she joined my program at Grassi magazine here in the UK, very popular magazine is perfect for her work. And she pitched that journalist and didn't hear anything back back, it was like the jazz had gone into a sort of a black void, you know, like out in the cosmos and never heard anything back. And then she, she learned from me, within the first week, she crafted a pitches the way I teach it, and then immediately got a response. She was just like, Oh, my God, and it's the same job. And to me, that was beautiful control experiment, right? Same journalist, exactly same work that she's pitching. So the expertise hasn't changed is the actual how she's pitched it. So once you hear hear a response, the key thing is not to freeze, don't be a rabbit in the headlights. So this is where I support my students, where I help them steer that opportunity to fruition. So actually follow up with a journalist, try and get a call in the diary, or actually share with them have a conversation around a story, because they're clearly interested in the story. If they've responded, that is the biggest compliment. Yeah, they get three, four or 5000 pitches a day, they've responded, that means they want the story. So already feel confident about it, and then say, right, you know, and kind of move the conversation on take, you know, take the bull by the reins, and then say, right. Okay, so the journalist has said, Yeah, I am actually interested in writing a story about, you know, I've got this column, as you know, I am interested in recovering this, this is can you tell me more, so then you respond back to that journalist. And the best way to at that point, especially if it's kind of a slightly nerdy journalist who has a column, journalists love data. So if you can have Supplementary Data to backup your points, with your story idea, that for them is the icing on the cake, say to them, they know it's an industry issue, or it's something that is a trend, like there's recent data about it. And there's data about everything, right. So that proves you know, your staff, that you've done your homework, and that there's credible data out there to back up your your angle for your pitch. So, start that conversation, feed them some ideas, some stories, and then see, you know, if you guide that conversation, say Would you like an interview? Should we book an interview? And close that conversation with when would you like to speak? Don't waffle on about your business? Remember, it's got to be all about that story. That's beautiful. Yes, it because it's like, your messaging should be about supporting them and their audience and you know, and all of that. And I love that you say about the data because for sure, like get specific, right? Because it's like, if you're just like, you know, oh, I you know, we make the best pies in Atlanta, you know, and it's just like what you know, it's like it's So it's like, dive deep. Get those statistics be very specific about a drill down deep right as far as what you're going to talk about. So you can differentiate yourself, because I bet you they've had hundreds of other people that they've probably written about the same subject, but like, what do you bring to the table? And how are you taking a kind of a unique spin on it? Right? Yes, yeah, exactly. And the key thing is actually, to be topical. So one of the things I teach is be topical. So the key question, you've got to ask yourself, when you are in that conversation, when that journalist so we'll take our avocado example, again, is why now, why should they feed you now? So if it's a journalist who's got this sustainability, you know, environmental column, they could be writing about electric cars, right? Like in the UK, today, there was an article about electric cars, the industry is like slightly broken, people can't charge their electric cars are getting stranded on the highway. So that's a very relevant topic. Because, you know, if people were just struggling, so when you pitch your story about your, you know, your avocado smoothies, you know, that a great for the planet, why should they cover that story now. And that's what you've got to kind of hook your story into something that is happening in the world. Yeah, give that lay that argument down. This is relevant now. So I'll give you a beautiful example of it. So one of my students last year, she in my program, she's an incredible conflict expert. So her name is Kim Colvin, and she's a former charge divorce lawyer, and she helps people find peaceful solutions in conflict. And her work is just simply incredible. And I was supporting her, you know, to get into the media when coaching her as we do in the program. And there's so many different ways for her to pitch. But what was interesting, what I had noticed was that there was a lot of family conflict happening across the US and UK, like, you know, celebrity conflicts. So the story that was sort of starting to break out was the Harry and Megan story and the Phantom conflict in the royal family. And then I'd noticed that Victoria Beckham was starting to, there was some conflict between Victoria Beckham and her daughter in law, supposedly Nicole pelts. But the thing that clinched it for me was the week that I suddenly thought, like, this is a time for Kim to go in to the media, the British media is an expert, was when the Queen of Denmark stripped her grandsons of their royal titles without informing them. family conflict, three big examples of family conflict. So immediately when we had in our program, we have a media roundtable where we bring journalists in, we pitched that idea to the journalists, we said, there's been three major Celebrity Family Feud, like royal feuds, Family Feud, you know, there's a trend here is people are in conflict and their families. And that's when the pitch landed. And the journalist when she wrote the article said, mentioned those three examples upfront, and said, and then Kim was brought in as an expert to talk about here are five ways to, you know, support yourself during a family conflict. Do you see what I mean? You had to use jack on that topic. It was a current, it wasn't necessarily trend. It was just relevant right now, it was topical, ya know, that? Oh, my gosh, that's such a great example. And it's like, you want to grab harness that momentum, right? And so you have to have, you got to have a ready, man, it's like, you know, once those things, you know, hit and then it's too late. If by then you're like, oh, I should, I should have something about that, you know, that it's like, you've got to be prepped, you know, so that, when that momentum happens, and you're, you know, always kind of being aware of what's going on in the world that relates to your area of expertise. And then and then no, you know, kind of like how, you know, before the Superbowl, like those writers, they have a, they have an article for each of the teams, you know, like, whoever wins, it's like, we're ready, you know, and so that, you know, you gotta have your stuff prepped and ready to go. And I love how you coach people to, to have a call to action at the end, you know, of their response to the, to the journalist, right? Because that conversate they're busy, right? And that conversation can just, like kind of fall to the wayside. If you're not controlling the narrative and you're not pushing it forward. So, I love that when you're like, you know, don't just go on and on about your business be like, what's good for you, you know, I'm Tuesday and Wednesday, anytime frames in there, you know, like, be specific and really drive it home. Absolutely. 100% Aaron, and I think that you touched on something beautifully there around, you know, be prepared, but be prepared means if you know if you're an expert In your your area of expertise, you will already know how you support your clients. Right. So Kim, I'm going to go back and talk about her again, she knows her world inside out, she can talk about conflict all day long. She's brilliant at it, supporting it. What she needed at that moment was just to hook it into the media. And that actually takes a creative brainstorming, you know, being able to identify how how you serve people, how you can tell that story, across a kind of rolling news channel, a new story that's happening in the world. And, you know, the way we do it in Postgres is we have creative brainstorming sessions, we're done lists, we bring them in, who they're looking for experts. And we say to them, you know, each my experts, my students roll their sleeves up, and we brainstorm together. And they're not actually pitching, they're brainstorming. And there's no pressure in that environment. And then sudden, we find that people are getting in the media very quickly, because a journalist is actually want to read a sea of cold pictures, they want to find good, credible experts fast. And when they get to meet them on a zoom workshop, over two hours, they get a sense of whether they're, you know, strong experts or not. And I'm pretty qualified people. And they normally are, but they aren't good at what they do. But the key thing is, finding that angle, that's the thing, you can find the angle, you've got the journalist, you've got the feature. And hopefully, then you're you're that go to write for that journalists, like once they have you want, like, hopefully it's like, oh, I got just the person, you know, who can who can be, you know, our, our source or expert source on this topic, you know, isn't that the dream? Like, you know, you're just you're on that list, you know, or they're like, immediately they reach out, they're reaching out to you. Incredible, isn't funny, you should mention that. That's exactly what happened last Thursday. So journalists had been in our program guested in December, and met all the experts, and we were brainstorming ideas. We were all enjoying finding ideas, everyone's business. And then she reached out to me last week and said, I'm writing a media article for the BBC, on Jacinda, harden, quitting as the New Zealand Prime Minister, because she said in her kind of resignation speech, I don't have enough in the time to keep going on with this role as prime minister. And this journalist was writing about it. And she said, I remembered actually, actually, what's happening is the quality experts he had was just phenomenal. Do you think you've got anyone that could quote on that story. And immediately, I've worked with everyone in my program, who I thought was a good fit. And there were so privacy comes back to original point, not to be scared of putting forward your ideas. And so after eight weeks, within two hours, five of them had sent a pitch to that journalist. And then some they were all running, it was it was actually peak time at lunchtime, Eastern Time. They were all poor. running workshops, and then there's me rocks doing their their kind of great game, BBC One song quotes, you want to get in quotes, and they're great. But they you know, but the key point is, even though I'm laughing, because it was like, you know, it's a tangent is operate, they need stuff bots, because she genuinely did have a two hour timeline to get to send it to her editor at the BBC. So she needed those quotes fast. So it actually becomes a bit of a race, like who can get their quotes in the fastest. And because these people, these students were experts, they already knew their stuff, they could quote on that story. And to up to two of us and that story. And yeah, it's just two of us. It was brilliant. That's so awesome. I know. It's it's the end goal, right? It's like, and when you see it coming to fruition, I mean, how exciting. And so you mentioned Voxer, I use it as well. There, is there anything else because I'm always looking, helping our listeners to like be like, Oh, if this this could make my life easier, you know, is there any other kind of like, tools or processes that you use that you're like, can do my business without or or personal life? Either way? Yeah, and obvious question. So I mean, a little tip, where I would say, I shall give you a couple of tips. I'm just thinking, in terms of tools. I think lice ways of getting into the media, if people are wanting to get want to get into media is Eupen that you can go to this there's something called Harrow, Help a Reporter Out, where you sign up, and you get notifications when reporters are looking for experts. So they put out a notification through the system and they say, oh, you know, I've got a journalist request. I'm looking for someone who could comment on this story. And so that can be a really nice, easy way to get into the media very quickly. The key thing to note about that, is that you need to respond quickly, because what what What's happened is a journalist doesn't have any experts in their network to comment on a story. So they're kind of at the desperation point by putting something out publicly, you know, is there someone out there. And so they want, it's normally, you know, they will, they'll often get like 1000s and 1000s of responses to that. And it's only the first person who just tick the boxes for that story. So if you respond very quickly, then you've got a high chance. And one of my clients did that. She got into a publication. It's very hard, actually in the UK, and she's a psychotherapist Kay Jane has role and she, she responded to a journalist. And it was really interesting article about how people get burnt out at the summer when they're trying to do too many things. So there was the overscheduled. And she responded to the journal request, and was featured very quickly. And that was lovely, because then she could then build a relationship with the journalist future features. So you can also use there's a hashtag on Twitter called hashtag journey request, and you can see all those requests coming through. That's a really nice tip for people to do. Yeah, that's super helpful. I didn't even heard about that. That's really great. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And yeah, the other thing you can do as well, is also if you know what your expert topics are, what are the things that you talk about your business, you can set up a Google alert, as long as you're quite niched on what that topic is, you can set a Google alert for any new stories on that subject. And so when a new story happens, immediately, you get that Google alert. And then you can just quickly do some research and then just start responding to journalists. And saying, you know, I saw the story out there on this subject, and I've got an idea for you on how you can move the story on, because you never want to be pitching for same story, you want to be looking for ways to move that story on to where it's actually going next. Now, that's genius, you know, kind of be like, Oh, I saw this. And that's great. But also, you know, what about this tangent, you know, of it, you know, kind of like, you know, expanding it? No, I love that. And then let's talk real quickly about what if they don't respond? Right. So how often do you follow up? Is there a specific cadence that you recommend? Yeah, I love this question. Yeah, I mean, I would use it, it depends, really, because if it's, if it's a very relevant subject in the media, you want to be and you're seeing these news stories constantly come up. It's a case of just, you know, following up regularly with that journalist, but trying to give them a fresh angle each time. Because if you're seeing that that story is getting out there, and you're not commenting on it, but it's in your field of expertise. And then you're seeing, you know, another slant and that story and another slot. And these are sort of repeated opportunities, then it's a case that you've identified the right journalists, you just need to build a relationship with them, you're not on their radar. So tips I say to people is trying to follow up with a journalist sort of, if you've pitched a story, and they've not responded, then but you've really identified it, that is the journalist in your niche, then you know, pitch again, like pitch a month later pitch two months later pitch three months later, just keep pitching them, your name will keep appearing at the top of their inbox. And the other thing you can do is I really love saying that Instagram is the world's biggest Rolodex. It's a free Rolodex. And what I mean by that, you can actually voice note a journalist, if they have a public profile. So clever strategy, I say to my students in picture press, is try multi layered approach. Because actually, if you're not getting through on the inbox, are those journalists on Twitter? Can you tweet those journalists? Can you voice it those journalists on Instagram? And some of them will listen, some of them won't. But it's phenomenal when they listen. And then you start conversation, you really stand out as someone who is ready to talk about their expertise when you actually use your voice to tell your story or tell you not your story, necessarily, but a story. Yeah, actually their attention. That's your boys are very powerful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And they can hear that you're real human. It's more personal than email. So try to follow up regularly with the same journalist. And also try multi layered approach through voice notice through tweets, commenting their stories, you know, on Instagram, starting, you know, going to events at their present art, telling them that you love their work, telling them what you're doing in your business that can support their work as a journalist. Yeah, no, that's really really great. Like don't hone in on the one avenue, you know, and I love like, you're not only kind of multithreading through The, the platforms and the formats but also Yeah, through like multimedia, you're doing it through audio, are you doing it through written word? You know? What about video? Do you ever suggest people send journalists a video of themselves pitching or mostly just audio? And you could do that you could do that. Um, I mean, I've tended to do mostly voice notes. But you could do video if you feel comfortable on video. So, you know, one of the things to to ask yourself as an entrepreneur is, how do you like to show up, right? Because if you love showing up on video and you're passionate on screen, then your face will light up as you tell your story idea. So you want to you want to choose the method in the way that you best shine. But you also want to lay that with where you think the germs is hanging out most? Yep. And sometimes it's the case that their inboxes are so full. They don't they're not reading all their emails. Yeah. How can you fly over that sea of pitches? Right? And actually, that's, that's kind of what I've worked out in pitch to practice. Right? You know, I help students pitch coldly and cut, you know, cold pitches really well. But I also bring in the journalists so they can meet the journalist. And that helps them fast track. Yeah. So it's finding those different ways touch points with someone to connect with them. Gosh, I have had so much fun in this conversation. Where, where can people find you online? Oh, thank you, Erin. I've really enjoyed it as well. We've kind of dived into quite a lot. I love the avocado. I'm exhausted. We're just brilliant. It's better than that one. A one example I've used before is pugs as well. I seem to talk about pugs in my course. I don't know why you think pugs are quite memorable. And people seem to love when you use a pug as an example. Yeah, well, people can connect with me on social media, at startups and CO so sta R, T, up s and AMD CO and CO so you can put that in the show notes that I'm spelling it out renewable button startups and CO and tell me connect with me, send me a voice note, send me a message. Tell me what you took away from this interview, I'd love to hear your thoughts and tell me who you're going to pitch to next, like use me to be an accountability, accountability buddy for you. Because, you know, telling someone I want to pitch that and actually doing it, you know, it's, you need that kind of guidance and support. So I'm here for you to message me on that. And then secondly, if you want more information on how you can get your business into the media, I've got a lovely resource at pitch depressed.com, which is a sort of lovely three page freebie that teaches you the step by step how you can get into the media. So it's a really nice sort of process flow. I've had people download it before, and there's so many get like four or five media features, which is just incredible. And I've used it myself actually to pitch into magazines here in the UK. So it's really lovely when I get an email saying I downloaded this resource and it really worked. Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you so much for allowing, you know, people to partner up with you as a countability. Partner, I'm gonna do it, I get it pitch myself. And for that free resource, we will link to that in the show notes as well. So we always call out close out with the same question. Which is, if you could only listen to one music artists for the rest of your life, who would it be? Oh, God. That's a really hard one. Think the one that because I have different tastes in music, very different tastes in music. So I love to listen to a lot of EDM dance music. But there's got to be time and place for that. So I would go just the thing, the music that I never stopped enjoying listening to is Ella Fitzgerald. So just old classics. You know, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald. That kind of Saturday morning making breakfast in the kitchen? Making brunch music? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, that would be it. Because I would get bored of other type styles and music afterwards. Like I love them. There's got to be a moment for them. But that this is sort of passes France and art to any future and I can never get bored or so enjoy those. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Great question. We love ever music heads over here. So he's, and we created a small business, big mindset playlist on Spotify. And so we add everybody's selections there. So you can kind of be like, oh, and listen to playlists or whatever every other entrepreneurs listening to. That's such a great idea. It's really fun. So thank you so much again for chatting with me today. I've had the April complete blast chatting with you and I've learned so much and I know our listeners have to so, so grateful. Thank you so much, Erin, thank you so much for inviting me. I've absolutely loved connecting with you and having this beautiful conversation. And I hope so many of your listeners get lots of wins from it. So thank you. Thanks for tuning in to the Small Business Big mindset podcast. To keep the fun going. Check out our Facebook group start and scale an online business For even more free trainings and resources from fellow entrepreneurs. If you haven't already, head on over to muscle creative.com and click subscribe and join our email list for weekly updates. And if you've enjoyed this podcast episode, check us out on your favorite podcast platform to follow us and give us a review. As always be authentic bringing insane amount of value and keep crushing it