Welcome to the Small Business Big mindset podcast, where we dive into tactical strategies to grow your business and make an impact on this world. A huge part of success is keeping your mindset and vision on track. So this is a major part of our process. And this podcast. Let's do this welcome to the Small Business Big mindset podcast this week, what a treat you guys we have a Laura Belgray. She's founder of talking shrimp author of the upcoming tough titties book out June 13, from Hachette co creator with Marie Forleo of the coffee care, the list goes on and on. Laura, thank you so much for joining us today on the show.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Erin. It's I'm just so happy to reunite with you.

Yeah, so great. So listeners we Laura and I have worked together I really do feel as though Laura is a mentor of sorts. And I know that there's probably hundreds of 1000s of us out there that feel that way. I was honored to participate in her shrim club, mentorship and have been a student of hers really for the past few years. So what a joy to have you here today. So, Laura, I, I would love to hear. I know some people probably know your story. But can we start there? Can you just kind of like go into a little bit about yourself and your background and how you came to be where you are today? Sure. So you ready for the overnight success story? Guys? Actually, let's go buckle up, folks.

That starts in 1992. That really is when I never know how far back to rewind, but I'll just start there. Why not? Since you asked. So that's when I was a year out of college and had triggered around for a year doing bartending jobs and not having no idea what to do with my life with my dad asking me because I lived at home. Dad asking me every day, you know, how's the job search going? It's I am pounding the pavement. I wasn't really. And I lucked into an internship at a magazine called spy, which was the hot downtown New York publication, headed up by Kurt Anderson and Graydon Carter, who went on to do Vanity Fair and now airmail. So it was a pretty cool place to be. And I was excited to start my magazine career. I didn't know what I was going to do in magazines, I always wanted to write something. I didn't see myself as a journalist, and neither did they at spy. They. They gave us they wanted us interns to come up with in pitch stories. And I didn't come up with any it was a six month internship. And over the six month, you know, the the sand going through my six month hourglass, they bite it very quickly, me not coming up with any stories. And the editor took me to lunch and said the managing editor she said to me, you know, you can take initiative here. And it's not great when someone tells you you can take initiative asks you to take initiative, it's pretty much the opposite of initiative. So I didn't come up with anything during that during those six months. But the ad side, we were all on one floor and there wasn't that separation between church and state. You hear about it magazines, between editorial and ads, the ad side like me and took mercy on me and hired me. They said we've got room for you over here. So they took me in. And most of most of my job was admin stuff. But they assigned me one plum job. I thought it was a plum job. Nobody on the editorial side wanted it. And that was to write an advertorial for the magazine if you're not familiar, that's the page in the magazine that looks like it's part of the magazine, but it's actually an advertisement and says the top you know, in tiny writing advertisement or promotion. So this was for Dewar's scotch, and I had the whole page to do things with so part of it was a recipe for a cocktail. Part of it was an essay on adulthood, which is laughable. Given I was still living at home and had flopped at my internship. And had spent my first year bartending and being a bar Ho. So I wrote that there was a little essay at the bottom that and also a quiz called, do you party like your Uncle Marty? And the quiz was to determine whether you were cool or an old fart. And if you were an old fart, then obviously the remedy was to drink Dewar's and become cool and hip again. So I wrote this, this, this one page thing, I had a full page Ah, in the magazine, it was very exciting. And people really liked it even on the editorial side of it, guys on the editorial side who it was all guys at the time, were like, This is really funny you should actually write, you should write stuff. And so that's when I discovered copywriting. That was what that was. It was my first piece of copywriting. And it's still in a binder in my childhood bedroom, where I just lived ever since. And I went on from there to be the copy the copywriter at another magazine, which was a bit more corporate and buttoned up. And I lasted six months, because I couldn't come in on time, and I hated my boss, and I'm not made for corporate life. I don't anticipate the boss's needs. I don't follow chain of command. I thought everything I wrote should be cheeky and sassy, which I still believe, and that and my boss thought it should be elegant. And so we didn't get along. She fired me at the six month mark. And after that. I had lunch with my friend Adam from spy. And Adam was doing this job that he said was writing promos for VH one, and I was like, What are promos? And it's like, well, I watch a lot of TV. And then I write those little things that go in between the shows during the commercials that are basically commercials for the shows. And I was like oh my god, that's a job. I have to have that job get me that job. And as luck would have it, they actually had room for somebody else to do that job and and so he hooked me up with the editorial director she assigned me my first promo I did that. I wrote a lot for BH one after that I became one of their go to writers I even wrote countdown shows for for like MoonJune Zappa, who was the voice of valley girl and the song valley girl, Frank Zappa's daughter, and then segwayed to what was my holy grail of promo departments, which was Nick at Night and worked there and then their spin off Channel TV Land for many many years. And that was my bread and butter and I worked for other networks to I wrote promos for Bravo for we TBS, NBC, HBO all kinds of networks, and even the commercial for Fandango. That starred Kevin Hart. And so really like me, I felt like made my mark in promos but started to get a little antsy. After some time there. I was also complacent. But I felt like I had something bigger to say something more to write. I didn't know what it was. I took a screenplay writing course three times in a row, and never wrote a screenplay. He just didn't have an idea. For one. I didn't know how I was going to use my voice, write in my own voice and make money from it. And I met around 20 No, sorry, I met way back in 2003. But didn't end up turning it into a work opportunity until like late 2009 2010. Marie Forleo, who is out we met in hip hop class at crunch. And she was at the time a life coach a beginning life coach and a bartender and we became friends today. She is one of the biggest names in the online space. And you are renowned thought leader has been one of Oprah's thought leaders for the next generation, Super Soul Sunday etc. At the time, she was a life coach and bartender. And she asked me in 2009 to give she you know, she built her business up quit bartending and was having her first live event called Rich Happy and Hot live and asked me to give a presentation on copywriting. And she knew my she knew me from crunch and we would talk about promos and she knew me as a professional copywriter for TV totally different from the kind of copywriting and the the audience that she was serving. But it didn't matter I just gave I told what I knew about copywriting. And people came up to me during after the presentation and said, You know, I'm a realtor or I'm a coach or I'm a veteran that can you help me with my website copy? Can you help me with my about page? Can you help me with this or that? And I hadn't done that kind of writing, but I knew that I could probably better than most people, because most people don't know how to write in their own voice or in a voice that sounds human and conversational. And that was something I knew how to do. And so I took on those jobs and liked them and ended up segwaying over time, and partly because I got fired from my biggest client like my bread and butter client in promos in 2010. So ended up segwaying pretty completely, eventually into the online copywriting world. And I was a copywriter for several years for many different clients. A lot of coaches who had realtors, people who were private chefs, all kinds of service providers, entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, every kind of thing, ending and printer that you can think of. And that's not the end of the story. I mean, I made my name as a copywriter, Maria and I created the copy cure together and our copywriting course. And at a certain point, I started to feel a little itchy again, like I was always introduced as this is Laura Belgrade. She's Marie Forleo is copywriter, which was the misconception anyway, we were partners, I wasn't her copywriter, or this is Laura. She writes for Bravo and Fandango. This is Laura. She writes for so and so she's helped Mastin KIPP, people would just name everyone that I worked for. And that was what defined me. And at a certain point, I felt like, you know, I don't want to be known as so and so's copywriter. I don't want to be known as anybody's anything, I want to be known as Laura fucking Bell Gray, I want it to be known for me. Look, this is Laura. She's a writer. And so that's when I started to segue out of being a copywriter, or for other people, and into teaching copywriting only and mentoring people creating programs and using my writing, which I was really good at my own copywriting, especially in emails for myself, like, you know what, I'm going to use my emails, which I've always which I've written for years and years as my content at which I just use to entertain people, I use these to sell stuff, to sell my own stuff. And so that's when I segwayed into this work that I'm doing now, as a brand as a personal brand. And yeah, a writer for myself, I use my writing to make money for me. And here we are.

And I say bravo. And when I was prepping, you know, I was like doing some other projects this morning. And I was like, I'm so excited. And I actually said this in my head, I have a podcast, I get to chat with Laura fucking Bell gray. That's how I say your name. So, there's that. And I will tell you with a copy of yours, I've bought my share my own share of online courses, it is the only course that I refer back to a time and again, you know, if I'm working on a certain project, or you know, and I'm like, Oh, what was this? You know, they they touched on this and copy here. Let me look you know, and and so, so awesome. Thank you for the copy haircuts been super, super helpful.

Thank you for saying that. That makes me so happy. Yeah,

no, it's great. And I remember when I was going to start it, because I have also been writing is my career and I was just like, I don't know, is it for seasoned writers? Is it for entry? Like it's for everybody, you know? And so and I will tell people if you're if they're ever thinking about trying it out, please do. Because as a person who who has debt rights for my career, I found it super, super helpful. And it was so funny when you're like I took a screenwriting class three times, I've never read a screenplay or reminded me each time I've gone snowboarding I've taken a snowboarding class. So it's not gonna happen for me, I need to, I need to realize that. So when you're talking about all the different kind of producers and production houses that you were writing for, I was like, Wow, that's so many different voices, and just a plethora of tone that you kind of have to you know, ingratiate you know, get in there and so how can you speak to a little bit to that because I think for for some writers especially those you know, starting out it's just like how do I how do I figure out the voice and the tone you know, from client to client and and also it seems like that's really helped you when you started taking on copywriting clients right later on in your career and even now as you're mentoring writers so can you cuz you know, people they have a hard enough time, you know, figuring out their own voice right, but then also to kind of figure out everybody else's so can you speak on that just for a little bit?

Sure. Well, I'll start with Nick at Night because Nick at Night had a they had a distinct voice of the network. The the tone of the network was very curatorial man. Ask serious, you know, this is the place for classic TV, the home of classic TV. And they had spots that were very tongue in cheek, there were a series called our television heritage, they would talk about Reuben from The Partridge Family and how his toupee would shift when he raised his eyebrows, and they call it the Reuben hair shift. It's part of our television heritage. And the voiceover was a person named Bill St. James, who, he's one of the original like, in a world, guys. And he had a very, very, a voice made for TV and radio that serious, you know, gravitas kind of voice. And I would get into the voice when I was writing it by thinking of his voice and even mimicking him out loud to myself. So I knew what it had to sound like, I knew that it had to have this sort of serious tone. But say, you know, but while saying something absolutely ridiculous. And that helped me get into that voice. And later on, like, with all with different networks, if I was writing for a specific personality, for instance, I mentioned Fandango, and the spot with Kevin Hart. I would think of Kevin Hart's voice, listen to him a little bit, and then think of his voice when writing the spot that was for him. And so that worked well for me is he actually hearing the person's voice and mimicking and I was a good mimic growing up, I mean, I've always been a pretty good mimic. So that helps, too. But I don't think that you have to be a born Mimic, in order to do that. But trying to talk like the person trying to mimic them, that can help you get into the voice, the cadence and what they would say. So even if it's just your client, who is a life coach, thinking how they talk listening to them, don't just do this through email, have a session with them, where you talk and hear the way they speak?

No, that's so helpful. Because it can be such a challenge, you know, and so, I speaking of hearing people speak, I never listen to audiobooks. I am so excited to listen to the audiobook of tough titties guy just tell you so. So tough titties. Let's talk about that as well, because I have been on the free cell list for this ever since you like posted about it. I was like, Yeah, so when can I get it? And so it doesn't come out until June 13. I'm like counting the days. But talk to us a little bit about how that came about, right? Because I'm assuming you weren't just like, you know, 10 years ago being like, I really want to write a book called tough titties, you know. So tell us like how it came about. You know, it's probably not maybe the book that people might assume you would write. At this point in your careers. I'd love to hear about that. And about the process as well, because I know a lot of us out there, myself included, are kind of enamored with the traditional book process. So I just gave you five things to talk about.

I'll try to tackle. So I mean, I have been talking about writing a book in some form since probably 2003. I remember being at a birthday party in 2003. And announcing I'm writing a novel, and I was shy, I was like, I probably shouldn't say this out loud, because it'll probably take a long time. But I'm writing a novel. And of course I did. And I wrote parts of it. I wrote parts of a memoir. I was always, for so many years working on some little bit of a book. But having no idea what the book would end up being. I didn't know what is my story. I didn't know how my story would end it hadn't really arc to yet to any type of transformation or growth. It was all I had to write about. And they were fun to write. But we're stories of mistakes, and failure and laziness and lateness and social mishaps and dating humiliations and work and adulting fails. And those are now all together in a book called tough titties. I would say I started writing in earnest still not knowing the title or what the shape of it would be in 2019. So and I found a mentor recommended my by my friend Terry intraspecies to who was also writing book and she said, There's no way I would have a book to write without Suzanne Kingsbury. And so I she put us in touch and Suzanne was the perfect person to help me she's she read all my stuff, and responded to it really well. I had written many, many chapters of the book with no shape and she said we can sell this. This is great. Let's keep going. Here's what else I think you're here. other stories I think you should write that you've alluded to and these, etc. So that's when I started writing it. And then I didn't know what it was going to be called. Or the theme of it really. And sort of, I think my working title at the time was New York City, because because the dog growing up in New York City, you get the idea. And one day, I caught myself saying something that I say a lot, which was tough today's like so and so wants you to do that, so and so thinks that you should show up for this. And I was like tough titties. And I realized that that is something that I say a lot, because I'm 12. Still, and I'm still in like, 1980 in terrycloth halter top. And in my roller skates, I'm not not literally but in my mind, and it is the ultimate Sorry, not sorry, to expectations to what you are supposed to do. And I am not supposed to person. And that's the theme that has arised for a reason. Throughout the writing of this, it's all about being non compliant with everything that we are supposed to be. I'm supposed to learn to drive and do my paperwork and be on time and learn to roasted chicken and have children. And the last of which is my biggest, tough days. Sorry, not sorry, I'm not doing that. And so the theme worked. That's like tough titties. That's the name of my book. And it felt very New York to me, New York attitude and my attitude. And then the subtitle is on living your best life when you're the effing worst. And that, that expresses the rest of it. I think a lot of people have said to me, hearing my story, and what I do for a living and how much I make, because I've been pretty open about that. You know, oh, my gosh, I want to be you when I grow up. And like, I'm sorry, did you get the impression that I'm a grown up? Because I am a flaming hot, massive human. And that's, and I'm not being hard on myself. I just think there's so many ways where I'm still not a grown up, and probably never will be. I try to work on things but I am late. I'm late to the party. I'm late to the Zoom call. I just always running a few behind. I am lazy. People might argue with that. Because I have gotten I have achieved a lot. But I can't I do consider myself lazy. I don't like doing things that I don't want to do. And some people actually aren't good at that. That's a skill set that they have. And right i There are people who are like, who are dutiful, and stoic and get everything done, whether they want to or not. And that's just not me. I'm the one who barely raises my feet when my husband comes around with a vacuum cleaner. Just like oh, he's like, Oh, I'm so sorry for cleaning.

Yeah, well, I mean, you've given me almost permission to do you know, because I think, you know, I speak for a lot of us over like, you're told to do so many things and you want to achieve and you know, every quiz I take, like, I get that, like achiever and leader, you know, because I'm like, Yes, you know, I'll do it. But then you're like, What am I doing? You know, because they'll tell you to do this, like, you know, have grow this list, or have this membership or have this website and write up all this stuff? You know, I do a podcast here. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, it's like, at some point, you have to look at it and be like, What do I actually want to do? Or, you know, what am I dreading? What am I like, oh, like, I cannot believe I have to do like, go on my LinkedIn group today, you know, maybe you shouldn't be doing that, you know, and so and so for, for, you know, when you were like, you know, just don't do things you're supposed to do, do things that you want to do. It was just like, I have permission, think. So, so thank you for that, really? And then were the How was the book process for you? Because I can imagine that can be pretty stringent, right? Like, certain due dates and everything. So how did you manage all of that?

Yeah, well, first of all, you did bring up me not writing the book that I'm expected to write in my industry. And that would be a copywriting book, or a marketing book, or some sort of a how to a personal development book. And one might say that my audience is full of people who only want to read books with action steps. books that tell them what to do. And I don't think that that's true at all. I have faith that they are a bunch of lazy mofos like me, are wish they were and wanting to embrace that side of themselves and want permission to be more of themselves and just Want to feel better about their flaws and embrace those, and that is the book that I wanted to write. Not necessarily with that aim, but I came to that at the end, I wanted to write my story. So that's it. I wanted to write a bunch of stories with no call to action, no sidebar, with your next steps, no bullet points at the end of each chapter, here's what you've learned, no. And had I written that kind of book, I probably would have had more bidders for the book. And as it turned out, I had just one. And that was my publisher Hachette. Everybody else that my agents went out to said, she's a great writer, we love this. Would she be willing to write a marketing book or how to arrive? And I had made them promise to say, No, she won't. And so I sold it to her shad. And it has, I thought it would just pour out of me it had a lot of it had poured out of me. But it turned out that I still had to, it wasn't enough to just say, here's the story. Here's what happened. And it was really funny. Oh, my God was so embarrassing. That doesn't make for a good book. Each chapter Each story has to arc to some sort of wisdom or some sort of a point a why, why am I telling you this? Just like my emails do just like a blog post has to it. It is expected of us no matter who our audience is, people want to know why am I reading this? Why are you telling me this? Whether it's obvious and blatant or embedded and subtext. So that was a real beast for me was finding the why of every story that I was telling. Why am I telling this what's the point of this? Sometimes I had to make one up. And so it was a long process with a good year in there 2021 I call it the worst year of my life. Because I spent the almost the entire year pacing, crying moping, panicking, procrastinating, watching a lot of Netflix, reading a lot of trashy novels, listening to audiobooks of like, you know, of the same genre of personal essay memoir, and thinking they were so much better than anything I would ever write. Why isn't mine like that, etc. And, and then pushing off the deadline a couple of times. It was supposed to the book was supposed to come out in fall of 2022. Okay, and now it's coming out summer 2021. It's not that long after but it just it felt like a real fail for me to be at at the deadline or approaching the deadline and not having rewritten or written anything now, though. Yeah,

I can understand that. And did they segmented out? Was it like you have to have this much done by this time? And then this was done by this time? Or how was it structured?

So it was more like, give me a few chapters. This is what my editor the acquiring editor said to me. Give me so I had the I got the book deal in October 2020. And then she said, so by spring, you know, you should have a few sample chapters for me to look at. And your intro that sets it all up. And so I gave her I handed her not just a few sample chapters. But like, all the chapters, everything I had been working on, I had been in a writing program and workshopping my stuff. And I thought it was really good. And, you know, maybe not polished, but I wanted her to see it as like, this is all stuff that I think is really good. And I want you to see it. And what I handed her was 85,000 words. The book, the book itself was supposed to be 75,000 in the end. And so yeah, she kept referring to it as the manuscript and saying, like, here's the problem with the manuscript. I'm getting to your manuscript. Here are some things I'm noticing so far, that really need to change here's what's not working and it was a big, I mean, I vomited on her without realizing it, and then she handed me in turn handed me a shit sandwich with no bread. You know, shit sandwich or a crit sandwich is supposed to have like compliments on either side. This is wonderful. I love what I'm reading. Here are a few things that you could work on. Just like oh, there you know, I'm afraid a lot of her email started with I'm concerned to that or I'm afraid that and that's what sent me into my spiral my tail spin which was just knocked down all my confidence like dominoes like my my writing confidence and then like business confidence and everything. It was such a shit show of a year from ammo. rationally,

I can imagine and I am someone who actually appreciates the shit sandwich. I have people who are like, tell it to me straight, you know? And I'm like, I wish I was like that, but I'm like, but also if you could throw in something that propped me up,

it'd be really Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't think anyone wants you to tell it to them straight. Yeah, without a little bread. On either side, at least in the beginning, at least an open face sandwich, or at least our

low carb. Just something Yeah.

Could be light bread could be a sandwich thins a crack or a flatbread. Give me a little bit like fluff up my ego a little bit, my confidence, tell me what you love what's working, then tell me what is terrible. And I need to fix. So that's all to say, you know, we moved the deadline. And she's like, okay, by the deadline, you know, I handed her all the stuff that I read gave her a few sample chapters as she had actually wanted around New Years of going into 2022. And then it was time to get going with a manuscript. She said, This looks good. And your manuscript is due on April 1, and then I just, I started in February, put my head down, hit my phone, in another room, I did Marie Forleo time genius program, which, which really helped me I needed that kick in the butt to just sit and work on my book every single day. And that had, it could not be a day of note, I had zero spare days to make a day of skip, you know, scrolling on Instagram, maybe posting something checking my likes getting distracted by swimsuits on Shopbop, I didn't have that luxury anymore, it was time to put my phone in another room and just work on my book every single day and get get a significant chunk done. And I made it I made it to my deadline, right on time. In fact, early by early I mean 4pm As opposed to 6pm. That's very early for me.

How did you? How did you choose the moments from your life that would make it into the book? And then once you receive that initial feedback of like, concerned about all these areas? How did you regroup and be like, Okay, now I'm going to tackle this?

Yeah. Well, how I picked the stories that I was going to include the moments from my life, basically, all the stories that matter to me, that was what I put in first, like everything, I it was first book syndrome, like I want to tell everything. And I also had different voices in my head, which is the big new now like the voice of this friend, who really wanted me to write about New York in the 70s and 80s. And about carrying mugging money in case we got mugged, etc. And that was something that I wanted to put in there and wrote, but it didn't work for the book. So and that and other chapters that other people wanted me to write, I was like, but this person's really expecting this thing. Like, who cares? This isn't for that person to book for, you know, for the world, not the whole world, but an audience of people. So I had to figure out what didn't fit, I had to be a little bit ruthless. And I had help. You know, I was working with Suzanne. And she helped me figure out like, Nope, you know, maybe that somatically this doesn't fit, I can go in the next book. And my friend, Terry, the one who connected me with her, had to talk me down on a regular basis, I boxart her like every day, and saying, I want to tell this story. And I want to tell this story. And I don't know how to make them fit. And I'm panicking that I'm not going to fit everything in it that I want. And she was like, You're not going to you are going on a trip. And you are taking a suitcase, you're packing one suitcase. Are you putting everything you own into the suitcase? No, you're putting the things that go on this trip into this suitcase, and there will be more trips and those other trips, you'll put the other things into those suitcases. So I and she she has, she had a metaphor, like a different metaphor for this every day. And it really helped. I had to remember like, okay, there can be more books. I don't have to put my entire life into this book, nor does anyone want my entire life in this book. So it was basically a matter of pulling out the ones that didn't work, rather than figuring out what to put in what to put in was everything and then pull and then take the things out that are keeping the suitcase from closing.

That's such a good way to look at it. You know, it's like you're having a dinner party with a towel clean food what is on your menu? Not hamburgers. So it's a great way. So, okay, great. And so how did you, you know, once you got that feedback again, because so many of us, writing is tough, you know, and it's, you know, even people that I work with, they're like, I'm glad I'm not the writer on this, because man, you know, because everybody has an opinion. And sometimes you're very close, especially when you're talking about your personal life. So how did you kind of climb out of that and deal with that criticism constructively? I guess?

Yeah. I would say with, with a lot of help. And then because Suzanne is very non critical, I mean, don't get me wrong, she will go in there and say, What is this mean? You know, I don't think you need this line, etc. But she's not a critical reader. And in terms of, she doesn't say like, this is bad, get rid of this. She's gentle about it. And she, but most of all, she will underline, like, where the powerful parts are, oh, it's okay. For you. Sorry, my, my browser just did something weird. So, that helped a lot, having a voice in my ear, and on the page saying, this is fantastic. This is great writing, I love this story. And also having a writing practice. That was to an audience ongoing while I was writing this, I had my emails. So every time I wrote an email, I would get feedback from my audience saying, I love this. See you too, I love the way you write, you write exactly what I want to hear you say the quiet part out loud, all the strengths of my writing that I value, I would get mirrored back to me from my audience. So that was really important to me, because writing a book is pretty much writing in a vacuum. And it's so hard. And you can see like writing emails and writing blog posts before that. I understood like, guesses why actors love the stage or say they love the stage, because they're getting feedback from the audience or sitcoms in front of a live audience. You're getting feedback from the audience, you get the last, whereas shooting a movie or anything else, a single camera show. You are it's it is into the void. Like even if you say something, if you perform something, it hilarious, the crew will be laughing silently, if at all. No, there is no sound. There's no feedback, you have no sense of how you're doing. And that's it's the same when you're writing a book. It's like, is this landing? Hello? Is this on? I can't tell.

Right? That'd be really, really tough. That's good that you had that other outlet, you know, you know, a feedback going on there. To kind of remind you to have like, no, wait a minute. I'm good. You know, but yeah, but it's it is different. You know, like you say writing a book versus there's so many different ways, you know, to write so many different mediums, so many different channels, and they all take a different, slightly different way to frame it, you know, so, so now the book is written, you're out catapulting toward the launch date. What does it look like when you're, you know, you like what happens when they're like, oh, yeah, cool. Check final book. This is approved, you know? And then how does like how do you pick the cover art and the date of publish and, and getting it out to the world?

You have the cover gets started. Bull, if I remember right way before I had the manuscript in, which was great, because it was something to work towards. It was like, Oh, I have a great cover. And this is one thing that everyone says is a nightmare. Everyone who's been traditionally published, like, oh, they did the worst job with my cover. I'm so unhappy with it. I had to redesign it. I had to hire somebody to design it. And my publisher really nailed my cover. I gave them a Pinterest board of ideas of, of thoughts, a mood board. That was very vintage retro, like, it had things on it like Bubble Yum, and not just not Diet Coke. I'm trying to think was it diet, right? There was a there was a soda. I'm trying to remember that. It's not coming to me. But anyway, all kinds of things from tab. Yes, absolutely. Tab, the tab font ads from the 70s T shirts. I wanted it to look like a T shirt and have that retro vibe and they executed on it so beautifully. I couldn't be happier with my cover. So that was done a while back before I handed in the manuscript. And then yeah, after that they give you a schedule. have like, here's their two sides, production gives you a schedule, like, you know, we're gonna work copy editing your manuscript and on this date, we're gonna get edits back to you, and you have one month to go through them and respond to them and either make them or write Step Four style or reject them. And that so they give you a schedule of how that's going to work. And then the publishing side, the the other the editorial side, I guess, gives you a schedule later on of how the marketing is going to go. And when your flap copy for some reason, that's a different department, the the jacket copy is going to be due and then when you know, so you've got due dates coming from both sides. And there's a lot of waiting and a lot of idle time when, when you can when you're free to obsess over your book and its fate and what you're not doing yet that you're going to have to do later or bug bug people like should we be doing this? Should we be doing that I'm not a work in head and work in advanced kind of person at all. But in this case, I'm a worry in advance person, which is so productive as we now face. Exactly.

So you, you've been doing great at the pre sales, I think, as far as Pinky free promoting. It's awesome. And so did you kind of like choose certain channels that felt good to you to get the word out? Or how did you kind of construct that campaign plan?

Yeah, well, because I'm an email person, I'm devoted to my email list, my email practice my shrimpers, who are my my subscribers, I knew that I was going to lean on email on the emails to get them on board and get them to buy and of course, I'd use Instagram. Which is my main social media channel and a great one for this book. Because it's such a because the cover is so great. People are really drawn to it. Yeah. So I've, so I've been Yes, I've been using like, what feels good to me. I know eventually, I'm probably supposed to go on to I'm sure they're pitching me for TV. Everyone's like, Oh, can you get on the Today Show? Like, I don't want to be on the Today Show that's not comfortable for me. Yeah, I think about my legs and how I'm going to sit? What am I going to wear? And like do do I have to wear a skirt? Because I don't like my legs? I think about all those things. I'm I'm self conscious way in advance them? Like I don't want it. I am sure it would be great. But it's not something I'm really excited to do. So yeah, I do what's comfortable for me? What I'm good at. I am not a huge proponent, proponent of getting outside your comfort zone. Yeah, I know. It's sometimes necessary. But I prefer to work within my comfort zone. So that

about the comfort zone, can we give the comfort zone some props? Because it gets a bad rap a lot of times, right?

It does. I'm so fond of my comfort zone. Like that is where my genius is they say all the magic happens outside your comfort zone. All my magic happens inside the comfort zone. Yeah. And you know, when necessary, I will go outside my comfort zone and say, for instance, speaking on stage is something that is not in my comfort zone, but I have done it. And the idea there is to enlarge my comfort zone, to bring it into my comfort zone make it something that I'm comfortable with. I don't know if it ever will be. Some speakers say nope, you never get over that you never get the nervousness and yeah, et cetera. But yes,

do you think you'll do a book tour? Do you think that might be something you'd be interested in?

It's something I'm interested in. And I love seeing my fellow authors who are publishing their books, often their first books around, you know, this same time, I've got my eyes on all of them. And I see some of them doing book tours, signing books, doing in conversation things. And I'm a little jealous because my publisher doesn't really believe in book tours for a first time nonfiction author who's not a big name, who's not super famous. Got it. They think, Oh, these were for people who are super famous, but generally, you're not going to be able to fill the bookstore the way we want. I don't know if that's true.

I have three Yeah, yeah. I would disagree.

I think so first? I think so. So so I'm definitely going to do a bookseller event in New York. And I think that's going to be it might be on pub day, June 13. It might be that week. I think it probably will. And I'm sure that that one will fill. Maybe it'll convince them that I should be doing other stuff. Yeah, but on the you know, on the other hand, having talked to people who've done tours, and said, it's like, you arrive in a city, that's not your city, you go to the hotel, you have hours there, you're all wired up as nervous, we have all this nervous energy, then you go to the event, the event is amazing. And then you're really wired after and you go back to your hotel, and you're alone, and then probably stay up too late, because you're wired from it, and then you wake up the next day, and you get on a plane and go home. Right. And, and that made me think, maybe I don't need to maybe maybe I don't need to fight my publisher on this one. I don't know. I think there's a lot they think they like to say. And a lot of people in the book industry like to say, well, it doesn't really move the needle. It doesn't really sell books. And I know that there are some things that won't sell books directly, like, oh, that night, we sold 200 or 2000 books. But the publicity, the brand image that you have from doing an event in public with lots of with a full room is worth a lot of books. I think that that does move the needle. So we'll see if I decide to push back. Yeah, I mean, I want to

maybe something I should do, but you don't want to do exactly. Well, yeah. And it's like, you know, I went to the book tour, I my big Beastie Boys fan, and huge, and they put out a book few years ago, and they did a book tour. And they only did select cities. It was like San Francisco, LA London, Brooklyn, New York, I think. And so my husband and I flew to LA, I was like, the only time we'll have to care, but I'm like we're doing as I'm buying the tickets. And then we're figuring it out. I think we were in LA for like, 48 hours for this thing. And, but what I thought was cool, and it's similar to to yours is that their book was about their life and their memories, and the funny things that happened, and you know, and crazy things that happen, that sort of a thing. And it was cool, because then they had they showed the photos. You know, I remember when we were in New York, and so you never know what's gonna happen. And they were like, when this happened, and they showed the photo and you're like, oh, my gosh, you felt like you were there with them. And you made this connection. And I think it's a similar sort of vibe, with your book and the content that you're sharing, as well. So where it's not like a typical book tour, where you're like read an excerpt, and you know, that sort of a thing that's like you, and that's natural to you anyway, where you kind of like draw your audience in through story. And so that's why I think like, if you kind of like made the book tour, your own, your own flavor, it could do actually really well. And you'd make that relationship connection with the people. Sure. Maybe you don't sell a million books at night. But to your point, you're creating that connection. So

yes, yes. And that makes people want to buy the book for somebody else. They spread the word, say you have to read this book. And the author is awesome. I met her I hope. I hope they would say that. Yes.

So yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna keep a lookout, and maybe I'll, you know, message you. And I'm like, so when is this tour? Are you coming to Austin, Texas, so? So the book comes out? June 13, can you please, please tell us where people can preorder it now, and you know, all the good things where they can find you?

Yes, so come over to tough titties. book.com, it'll redirect you to a talking shrimp page. And that's another place to find me is talking shrimp.com. But tough titties. book.com is where you can pre order if you preorder. Now, if you create our pre order, just one copy, you will get the intro chapter in your inbox, you've got to fill out the form on the page doesn't just come to you, as soon as you hit like Amazon and hit submit on the order, fill out the form. And people love the intro chapter like and love getting that sneak peek. So I recommend it. If you buy two, we're gonna I'm gonna have more bonuses, and they will be added on and so if you buy two now, you'll get bonuses you're not even hearing about yet later. But if you buy two now, you will have access to the intro chapter and this epic call that I did about my book process that I went through it from. I mean, they may have just heard quite a bit of this on this podcast, but the whole my full book process and I answered questions about the writing and the selling and you know, the book deal the publishing all of it. And it was a it was a great call. It was I would call it a fan favorite. So that's what you'll get for two.

That's incredible. And I will tell you I have never bought the regular book and the audiobook of any book and I did I was and I messaged you because I just cannot wait I just I was super excited for it. So

thank you. All right,

thank you for taking the time. I know you're incredibly busy, especially everything else and then Your book is about to come out. So I really am so grateful that you took the time to chat with me today.

I'm so grateful that you have me on it was really fun. And also one of my first tough titties interviews so I can use the light I can use the practice talking about my book. There's a lot to say. And maybe I learned to condense my getting started story with probably took up most of the podcasts.

But it was so good. I always I love hearing it because it helps people you know, as they're either starting out in their careers or doing career shifts. So with everything that you do help us so much. So, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for tuning into the Small Business Big mindset podcast. To keep the fun going. Check out our Facebook group start and scale an online business For even more free trainings and resources from fellow entrepreneurs. If you haven't already, head on over to muscle creative.com and click subscribe. Join our email list for weekly updates. And if you've enjoyed this podcast episode, check us out on your favorite podcast platform to follow us and give us a review. As always be authentic bring an insane amount of value and keep crushing.

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