Welcome everybody to the next episode of the clover podcast, where we celebrate all things women in leadership. Today, we have the incredible Erin rich with us. Erin, thank you so much for joining today. Really, oh my gosh, I'm excited to be here. And I love Aaron's, the two Aarons. I know we're like Aaron squared. You don't really that. And I will tell you, I'll tell the listeners, like, how much Aaron and I have fought to make this happen. We have had to schedule and reschedule this so many times, and so we're both so over the moon that we're making it happen. So Aaron, currently your VP of trade Marketing and Communications at Paramount. Currently paramount. So tell us, I always love to jump into people's journeys, you know, kind of how they got to where they are today. So if you wouldn't mind just taking taking us back. Oh my gosh, sure. All right, so, so basically, I've been playing in this crazy industry of the kind of convergence of tech, media and entertainment for 30 years. Oh, what? 30 and but it's been incredible. So really, just lucky to be in the Bay Area and so certainly started off my career in the in the startup world before there was even internet. Well, there was internet. That's why there were startups so kind of during that time. So the crazy tech world, which then meshed into, you know, the development that you saw with email communities and which formed Yahoo groups. And everyone saw where all that went, then continued that startup journey, focusing more on tech, where I landed at CNET, which Aaron you and I spent many years at, and then, just with the tech reviews and everything that CNET did to make kind of tech easy, and I don't know, streamlined in a kind of a guide for consumers, as everyone was figuring it out, And as it continued to evolve, then mergers and acquisitions started right and in this crazy world, so CNET becoming CBS interactive, which then became Viacom, CBS, and here I am today at Paramount advertising. So it's been quite a journey to see. But what I would say is that the thread that's been super cool in doing this for almost, I guess, three decades now, is the user always at the center. Consumer journeys, how consumers and and just us as human beings, how our patterns have changed over time, yet some of them kind of stay the same. You know, for example, everyone watched TV, well now everyone's just watching TV and content differently. So to see that and be a part of that, that evolution is super cool. And to look back, it's like, all right, wow. And it still continues, right? We're we're not done. So it's been awesome. Yeah, yeah, no, front row seat to all the things. And I, whenever I meet someone similar to myself, like yourself, where it's like we were in the Bay Area for the.com boom and bust. And like, all the things, and seeing all the changes. And you mentioned Yahoo briefly, and I remember there was this amazing Yahoo billboard right by the Bay Bridge. Yeah, it was there forever. And it was like this, like, hallmark of, like, just all the vibe, everything. And I remember when they took it down, I forgot even know who they switched it with, but it wasn't there anymore. And I was just, oh, that's a change. But what was super cool about that is that billboard was resurrected at Yahoo's presence at Cannes lion, the creativity conference this year. And I saw it on, you know, obviously I wasn't there in person this year, but I saw it and I was like, oh, there it is, you know. And it brought that, brought back such a nostalgic feeling of just, I remember driving by that every day on highway 101, down to Yahoo, and it's like, oh my gosh, there it is. Yes, talk about nostalgic brand and what, where they've taken it and just reclaiming their space. It's just been incredible. In fact, they're right upstairs in the building I'm in. They have, they have, they have a San Francisco office now, just right above, right above my head. Now, Oh, that's right. Oh, circle. It's. Circle, that's awesome. Yeah, I would be, I would love to see that that slide. It really did mean so much. And when I was you're you also briefly touched on, like, you know, kind of people are consuming content differently now and everything. And I remember when we were at CNET, and this is before mobile was a thing, right? So, like, dating myself, but, and I remember, like, every quarter we would have the conversation of like, okay, are people going to adopt mobile is now the time are we transitioning? Are we transitioning to mobile ads? Are we, you know? And I remember having those conversations of like, No, there's no way. Like, people are not going to have this little thing. Watch these little things, like, it's not, it's it's not going to happen, at least not yet, you know. But those conversations were pretty consistent, until finally, we were like, Okay, this is, this is going to happen. And now, I mean, it's like, you rarely watch TV, TV, you know? I think everyone's just on their devices. My kids don't know, really, networks, you know, they're more of like, What app are they? Oh, absolutely, likewise. Yeah, it's so interesting. So your career has spanned so many different facets, right? So it's like operations, partnerships, like, you know, in all strategic roles, across the gamut, startups, major brands. I mean, you just named, you know, quite a few enterprise brands. So talking about your leadership style, you know, like, how has that formed? It? Because you've had to be almost like a chameleon, and, you know, throughout it's sort of adjust and shift throughout the different acquisitions you've been through and all the changes in your career. So let's talk a little bit about that. Yes, I love the analogy of a of a chameleon. That's definitely how it felt sometimes, and that's one of the things I was thinking about before knowing you and I were going to talk about this. There have been many moments, a handful of moments, in my journey relevant to mergers and acquisitions I've been through that have forced me to, not forced, but reinvent myself. And the first time I did, it was so scary, like, Well, what do you mean? I have to reinvent myself, and what does that mean, and, you know, there was just a, it's, it's, I'm glad it happened early on in my career, rather than, you know, because that just was the first time that happened. It really set the tone, or developed, I guess, a muscle I didn't know you had to have, especially as a a female leader in this crazy space where you're faced with, oh my gosh, there's so much redundancy in my role now, trying to find trying to pivot, trying to identify unmet needs, where can I fill a gap? And it's, it's hard, but you know, the more you do it, it's like a muscle, right? The more you do it, and the more you're able to flex, the more it's, it's, it's inspiring to find opportunities that you wouldn't have otherwise thought were there. And while, in the beginning, it might have been a little painful to be forced to do that, I'm so glad that it happened, because it's just opened the doors, or it's opened the doors to other ways I can do what I do. I've never left a marketing role, per se, a marketing strategy role, but to identify different ways to do it has been super exciting, you know, and just to continue to evolve in this, you know, long kind of marketing hat I've had, but take it in different directions that I had never really thought about before. So that's been super exciting for me. Yeah, I mean, I bet now it's kind of like, second hat to you. Oh, if something happens, it's like, kind of like, Record scratch, okay, now we're over here. You're just like, okay, you know? And it's like, now we just now we're over here, and now I can identify opportunities, gaps, to fill in this, in this area, right? I mean, is there? Can you think of an example of where you've had to have kind of, like, apply those skills of just like, oh, thought we were doing this. Now we're doing this, or this is our priority. Now, it's not right, sure, I would say the the we'll just kind of keep it somewhat recent, when CBS and Viacom merged and we we became Viacom CBS, lo and behold, there was two other departments that were doing exactly what I was doing. I. Like, all right, this is cool. How is this gonna work? And so, you know, it was, it was clear to me that there was a ton of redundancy. And knowing that I just, you know, discovered or not discovered, but I would say, was looking for a different way that we could serve our advertising, some of our advertising clients, in new and different ways, as part of, kind of like a trade marketing role. And it's like, all right, if everyone's going to zig over here, I'm going to zag over here. And so, you know, one, one area that was somewhat up and coming was this notion of which actually at the time, but now you're seeing a lot of it now, of more of social impact integrated into into advertising. So you know, we all know that, obviously, with millennials and Gen Z, that they certainly, you know, right? We all know that they prefer brands that are aligned with their with their own beliefs and what they stand for, and that there is some social responsibility and accountability that brands have, and the consumers gravitate toward that, that that's important to them, and so just knowing that was kind of on the on the growth trajectory in that area, focusing on, okay, how can we help our clients connect? How can we help our our teams connect with their clients beyond the bottom line, and so that was something of a new kind of trade marketing strategy that we did where our agency partners could connect with their agency clients based on their social impact priorities. And it was such an eye opener for our sales organization just to be able to connect on that level that they've never done before. You know, imagine, you know, we're talking big. You know, these are, like the big hold codes right of the of the world, the publicists, etc, and the omnicoms, but to be able to connect with them, with what's most important to their employees. Their employees are our clients, you know what I mean? And so it was such a neat experience, and that just kind of grew into a whole new strategy that we have today. But at the time for me, I just kind of clamored, not clamored, but I just kind of really held on to that, because it's like, All right, cool. This is just a different way that we can do things, knowing full well that these other teams that are doing similar work that I do are doing this kind of trade marketing work over here. That's cool. I'm going to kind of zag over here and add to it in a different way. And so I think that's a that's what I mean by just finding, finding unmet needs. And it just so happened to to work, and we're still doing it today. And that was three, four years ago that we did that, that we started that, no, that's, that's huge. I remember when, when seeing that we might have been CBS at the time. We were CBS at the time, acquired clicker, and I was, you know, leading tv.com, you know? And it was like, oh, when we acquired TV platform, great work. So, yeah, very, very similar. There, absolutely, yeah, that was fun. So, so, so you're talking about, you know, okay, kind of like shifting your focus on, like, okay, we're still gonna do, you know, this aspect of the job, but now we're gonna shift it, and now you have to work maybe with different teams to kind of get them to see things in a different way. So, yeah, absolutely. So marketing and partnerships, like, right? So it's like, it's, it requires a lot of cross functional coordination, yeah, so, and that was a prime example, and so, and I feel like it kind of goes right into this next question of, like, leading teams, when influence is kind of like over authority, when you have to, like, kind of like influence, ideas and impacts and teams who normally wouldn't have driven in that direction. So, you know, and they, you can use the same example, if you like, but like, how were you able to kind of get that change into motion and kind of get buy in from stakeholders? That's a great question. And, you know, I would say, you know, working part of the influence, well, it, it's, it's a two fold answer. One is, I just kind of started doing it quietly. And at the same time, exploring that unmet need, carrying people on the journey with me. So it wasn't, it wasn't a surprise. It wasn't like, this is what we're you know, what we're going to do is more like, hey, let's try this out. What do you think you know, really getting people on board with the idea, and really focusing on the why it matters to their business and their clients, so making it relevant to them. And you know, once you start putting some context around it of what it means for their business, their their relations, you know, we're talking about a sales organization, right? So this is all really focused on, hey, look this. This is what it means to deepen your relations, and what it could bring to your business down the line. And I think keeping it super relevant, and taking baby steps and doing one little test at a time, and have them witness it along with me of Oh, wow. Okay, well, if that worked over here, let's try it over here, this whole CO and see what happens. And they're in align with their priorities, which are a little bit different. And so I think it's just a journey. You know, it's not force fed. No one feels left behind. You know, no one was putting down a gauntlet. It was just more of like, Hey, I get you. I see you. I know what you're trying to do to move your business. IE, hey, salesperson, and I'm with you on this journey. Like, let's, let's do it together, you know. And I think that goes, that goes a long way. And listening, just listening, listen to people's feedback. Take in, take in their, their purview. It's, it's their business, it's their client. Have them be part of it, you know. And it's just, just listen. Amazing. How many people don't listen and and have it, and have them and bring them along, you know? Yeah, have them see under the hood. What does it mean to do this partnership? And then lo and behold, they're going to have ideas too. And so, okay, cool. Now, now that they're sharing their ideas, now you have them on board, right and and then you just, and there it goes, and it takes off. So it's and it's still that, that way today. And now those same sales teams come to me and like, hey, you know I heard about this, and this and this client is really into this, and what do you think? And, and now we have an ongoing dialog about it, and it's so rewarding for everyone. You know, it's, it's so it's great. Yeah, I think just bringing people on board, listening, no surprises, and do it together, collaboration, yeah, I love that, and you've had to lead through ambiguity so much in your career. So would you because media, of all industries, I mean, so many industries are going through so many change, changes and are evolving so quickly media, oh my gosh. I mean, I feel like every day it's especially with AI, like, all the things. So it's like, you know, would you kind of apply kind of like, those same principles, you know, when you're kind of leading through ambiguity, and you Yes, sales organization, you still got the targets to hit. So would you kind of like apply those same principles, you think, absolutely and, you know, you bring up such a you bring up such a good point. There is so much going on with AI. I mean, this AI is, it's just a, you know, think about the Wild West when the internet started, right? There's, there are no standards, ton of players. Everyone's jumping in. They want to be the first use mine. No, this one's better. You know, it's just so much noise and so much confusion, and we're seeing it right now with AI and the white collar jobs are going to be taken over and on and on. And you know, now more than ever, it's so important to stick to solid principles. Be collaborative. Listen, you know, take it one step at a time. What are the user needs? What are the client needs? You know, slow it down, you know. And I think it's a juxtaposition of. So much, what's the word I'm looking for, so much innovation and evolution that's happening so fast, and that's needed. That is a necessary. It's a necessity, absolutely. But there's also always going to be the foundational human element that's going to that's going to drive, drive the AI strategy, drive everything. And so then, if that human elements never going to go away, right? You still have to have that collaboration. You have to have that ability to, you know, manage and work up and down all levels of the organization. None of that is going to go away. And so those principles still hold true, and that's what's going to ground, in my opinion, you know, those same principles, you know, are needed to ground all of the fast paced innovation and evolution that's happening. Yeah, I think that's so smart, you know, because honestly, it's like, as all these new technologies and innovations come about, if you go back to grassroots, you know, it still applies. So I totally agree with you. And so what you kind of mentioned, like Gen Z and millennials and everything, and so like, how do you mentor fast paced it's like, you know, especially for Gen Z marketers, I feel like Millennials are almost like, catch it up to us, right? And so it's like they're like, almost like, I won't say they're us, because that'll start a whole other discussion. So, yeah. So yeah, so like, how do you kind of, like, adapt your approach for Gen Z marketers or just in general sales, just focus on your team and all for your team. I'm sure that you also mentor folks that aren't you know directly kind of lined to you. How do you do that in such, like, such a crazy environment where things are changing? I'm so glad you brought that up. Yes, and I'll add to that, yeah, exactly, Gen z's, etc, you know. And so now you're talking about basically, you know, multi generational teams, right, needing to align and work together and stay grounded in a state of fast paced innovation and acceleration. And that's that is a big one. And, you know, I'm in the middle of it, right? I'm, I'm a 30 year veteran. I, you know, I have people on my team where I'm 20 plus years their senior, and it's hard to I have a hard time grasping that on some days. But, you know, like, how did that happen? But, but in general, it's been so rewarding. And I think and again, back to the same principles. You know, even though there are 20 years my junior, everyone wants to be heard. Everyone wants to have a seat at the table. You know, everyone wants to have their ideas be part of the equation. And I think it's more important than ever as a leader, to really foster that kind of team culture that values contributions and perspectives from all generations. You know, by just having that open communication, respect, empathy, and just really harnessing the unique strengths and experiences that each generation brings to the table. You know, it's it's just needed now more than ever, in my opinion, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. And I feel like I don't remember there being such a divide, or at least so many discussions about, like, different generations, like when we were younger. And I'm like, I just didn't ever think about baby boomers or, you know, whatever, and sort of the silent generation, like, it just wasn't a thing. And now, maybe because it's the advent of social and, you know, and everything, but it's just like, we're we have our like, little compartments of like, Gen X, millennials, Gen Z, of like, where we fit and what we're about and how we react, right? I find it hysterical that I'm actually so my children, Mattea and Simone, they're 12 and 13, so they're Gen alphas, and I never thought I would see the day that I'm reading research about my children better understand like, okay, what are their spending behaviors like, and how are they influence brands like, Oh, my God, it's kind of crazy. So as I like to ask this question and son. Some folks are like, I haven't really, you know, being a woman leadership. For some they're like, haven't really noticed anything which I'm like, wow. Okay, that's progress, I guess, too, you know. But for others, like, have you had any unique challenges as a woman in leadership, you know? And then, like, how have you, if you have it's easier to lose yourself and all of that and so and rather than, kind of, like, sticking to your own principled approach to how you you would do things. So can we talk a little bit about that? Like, has that impacted you at all in your your career? Oh, yeah, yeah, I would say early on and it, you know, happens a little bit here and there. I mean, certainly not, not as often. But yeah, I think I let's see, that's a good question. Yes, I would say early on, especially in tech, right? Oh my gosh, right, in startups, yeah, at the time, so like the first three startups I did, I mean, it was literally 80% you know, 80% men, 20% you know women. And there was this feeling of, oh my gosh, I don't know all the, I don't know all the nuts and bolts of, like, the intricacies of the technology. And it was like, this kind of, this, this, this, this geek, you know, this kind of tech geek persona. And you had to be a male to have that, have that persona, and if you didn't have that tech geekness, you weren't going to make it. You weren't going to make the and, you know, it was very difficult to break into, like, product and programming roles, but more roles in, you know, PR and, you know, marketing, and it was very apparent early on. Now, obviously that's completely changed, but I do looking back and again, that was, you know, 3025, 30 years ago, I do remember that very well. It's like, oh, I'm not a tech geek, therefore I'm not going to make it. And the tech geeks are filled, you know, the male tech geeks are filling the room, and there's no room for me, you know, I do remember feeling that, but that, you know, that's certainly changed. It also changed my the realization that I needed to speak up more. Because, you know, at that time, you know, I think there was some like, Well, gosh, if I just have my head down and work hard and show my results, then the results will speak for themselves. And but that's not the case. You know? It's like, oh, I need to I really need to have a voice. I need to speak up. And that's that. That has not been my strong suit early in my career. I'm much better about it now, but it was that, that that was something of, you know, we talked about, you know, you're at those muscles. That was another muscle I needed to flex. And, you know, certainly I wish I would have started it a lot sooner rather than later, but that's okay. I'm doing it now, but looking back then, it certainly was much needed and much more difficult to do. Yes, yeah, less accepted for sure, yes, yeah. And do you think that there's things that companies get right or get wrong when Yes, you know, supporting women in the workplace like, what have you seen or experienced? Yeah, that's a great question. And I was thinking about this wrong in looking back, I would say, and maybe I mean again, they're not as much today, but it's been a slow, a slow roll of improvement. I should say, I think a lot of companies tend to focus on entry level or pipeline hiring and initiatives versus so it's like all this work to get women or to get, you know, a. To speed and these, you know, entry level, and, you know, kind of early career. But then it's like, well, what about, what about the mid level? What about the mid level, mid career women who are now expected to do X, Y and Z, oh, and guess what? Now, children are a plate now they're taking care of their aging parents now they're sandwich parents. What are they doing for them? And that is still a struggle. And, and, and I just, I just know it. I just know that personally, being an older parent, and, you know, I'm a sandwich parent, right? I have 2/7 graders rising seventh graders, right dealt with my mom the hospital for six months last year, you know, and still had to keep everything going and travel up there and remote done. It's crazy, so, but companies, I mean, certainly, you know, I thank goodness I'm going through that now because I was very well supported. And there were definitely some parameters in place to from my, you know, from from my team and my manager and everyone here, but I would, but I would have that happen. That was not even now, like, you don't hear a lot about initiatives around that, you know, you hear a lot, like you said, around attracting women to the organization, right, and onboarding, and, you know, all of that good stuff. But you don't hear more about like as they're continuing in their careers. And you know, you know. And you said Santa's generation, aging parents still raising kids, that sort of a thing. So, yeah, yeah, it's real. Yeah, no, that's interesting. You mentioned learning that you have to speak up for yourself and have your voice being heard, right, kind of advocating for yourself, especially if you're the lone woman. So what advice do you give, like we were talking about these rising women leaders, right? They may be earlier in their careers, you know about, kind of owning their voice, and you want them to lead with impact, but it can be tough still today in kind of like male dominated industry. So kind of, what do you what do you what advice do you have there? Do it early. Just keep doing it over and over. Because the more you do it, the more you're going to feel confident about it, the easier it gets. You just have to get over that. There's a first for everything, and the first time is just so hard, sweaty palms, whatever, you know, whatever you're nervous. You're nervous, this is, oh my gosh, being on the other side of it is just I it's just, you know, and but what's interesting is, I do think it's a generational thing, you know. I think, you know, millennials and Gen Z women in the workforce are that, you know, it's just second nature to them, right? So I do believe it is generationally, generationally related, because we weren't taught or encouraged to do that, right? And again, it just was a muscle that needed to be learned later. And I would just tell any, you know, any up and coming person, interns, people that are starting their careers, or even even in, you know, wherever they're at, is just start it early. Start doing it early, and just get comfortable. Get, you know what? Actually, just learn to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Yeah, best thing I could pass along, yeah, learn to be uncomfortable and be okay with it all the time, like, oh my gosh, this is so nice, you know. And I wish I would have had that mindset early on, yeah, yeah. And I feel like there's a lot of standards that women, especially those that are up and coming in their kind of leadership journey, hold themselves against, like, you know, break that glass ceiling, get up that ladder, and they feel like their careers are on this trajectory of like a straight line, and if they take a parallel role, or take, you know, some time off, then it's like, come behind, you know, and I'm not doing it right. So it's like, you can almost call them like myths, right? So it's just like, What do you wish that kind of women would stop believing or holding them? Themselves accountable or against, you know, as they're kind of building their, their Yes, I have three of them. I thought about this. I love it. Number one, you know, myth is that you have to have all the answers. Yeah, she's got to have them, right? There's no room for bullshit. You can't just pontificate randomly. You have to have all the answers. Number two, and I mentioned this one earlier, is, if you are hard enough, your results will speak for themselves, right? And that goes, you know, then the flip side to that is what we're talking about earlier, is to have to advocate for yourself and just pull up a chair. Just make sure you have that chair at the table. And if it's not there, then just pull up a chair, just pick up the chair and put it at the table yourself. And a third one, which, I think it's still, it's still a tough one is, you know, to be respective. You can't show any vulnerability. Got to be just, you have to be on it got to be super, you know, buttoned up all the time. Can't sway either way or leave, leave room for question or of your authority, or your intel you know, or your capability, and so just that kind of notion of you can't show any vulnerability. It's like, Well, okay, then, then, you know, you're asking people that they can't be true to themselves, right? Right? They can't be human, and they can't be right. I mean, how can I possibly go wrong? So those are ones that stand out for me. Yeah, no, those are huge. You know, it's like an always having the right answers. It's akin to like not being blessed for help. You know, figure it out on your own. Yes, God forbid if you ask for help, right? And think about that, what that? It's like, you can't ask for help yet. You're having to keep all the balls in the air as a sandwich parent, you know, it's like, what? Really, I can't I'm gonna get dinged if I raise my hand and say, It's too much. Or, Hey, can I get some support here? You know? Yeah. So, yeah, it's real. It is real. Okay, as we I've so enjoyed this. So I just have one or two more questions, but I could talk to you forever. It's so fun, but as we kind of look ahead, yeah, what are you most excited about, whether it's leadership or personal or professional, like, what? What's kind of getting you going? Oh, wow, that's such a great question. Um, you know, it's, I think, and I'm, I was thinking about this, you know, I've been doing this for 30 years, and I am actually excited for, really, for just about where things are headed. I have no intention on slowing down. You know, most, most of my circle, is thinking about, you know, retiring in the next five years. And I'm thinking what that sounds so boring. Why would I want to do that? And I just can't even imagine, like, that's just not part of my it's just not part of my equation right now. But which, you know, which is fine, because I think there's so much happening, the innovation that's continuing to happen. I'm super curious where things are headed with AI, because it will impact, you know, all of our lives in one way or another. I'm excited about the continuing innovation just right here in our backyard as I sit in the middle of you know this, you know, this merger, like with Skydance and Paramount, and what that means for us. You see it across other parts of the industry. It's scary, but I think it's really just where things need to go and where the industry is headed and how it needs to change and evolve based on just how what people are doing and how people do things now, right in their day to day. And it's super cool to be a part of that. And it's, it's not done. So like, all right, I'm, I'm in, I'm in for the long haul. Even though I've already been in for the long haul. Long Haul, you're in for the longer haul. I love it. So a question I ask everybody, because, like we are music heads over here, is, if you could listen to only one music artist for the rest of your life, who would it be? Oh, I know it's kind of mean, one music artist, yeah, oh my gosh. That's a great question. Okay, let me try and get it down to just a couple real quick in my head that I've been listening to. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna sound so Poppy. That's all right, all of my answers are so pop music. Go for it. We need pop and I this question that you're asking since you said at the epicenter of music in Austin, right? No, or she's gonna ask that. I should have had an answer. You can name one that you're listening to now and then, one that's just a perennial favorite that you've always listened Yeah. Okay, all right, I'm gonna have to say it Taylor Swift, only because that's all right. She has some good songs, you know, and I say that, and I know she's super poppy and she, you know, you either love her or you hate her, but I have to say, as a mother, I took Simone to see Taylor Swift at SoFi Stadium in LA for her 10th birthday. This is just years ago, on August 3. It was the last night in LA, and I, you know, to see generations of women there rally. It was, you know, rally around this music artist and this music artist who are bringing these generations together. I have to say it was super empowering, and I think she's done a phenomenal job of claiming her art being her own boss. You know, this is beyond the lyrics and beyond the the, you know, catchy songs. It's just what she represents. I think it's great. You know, you can love her, hate her, but you got to give her credit. Yeah, what she's what she's done, and I find it super impressive. And if you sit, if you sit and slow down and read her lyrics, like, buy an album, sit in front of the fire, have a glass of wine, read the lyrics. It's pretty it's pretty impressive. Yeah, you know the deepness of her lyrics. She's an incredible lyricist, and I think people forget that, like, yeah, the songs can be irritating, but just read the lyrics, you know, it's, it's, it's impressive, yeah, at that of what she represents holistically, right? No, I agree with you. I mean, you cannot deny the what she has built and how she has built. It seems to be with integrity, you know, so I 100% agree, and some of the songs are damn catchy, like it doesn't help that I have to hear it in my household multiple times a day. So so maybe I've been brainwashed to answer that question, like Taylor Swift by my gent child, I have a 13 year old as well, but he's a boy, so there's not and he's not. Oh see, yeah, my boy just Matteo, just turned 13, and oh my gosh, I That poor kid. I feel so bad. He just puts on his headphones and listens to his jamming, anime, crazy music. Yeah, two of them are playing their music. Whoa, two different I take the dog for the walk. At that point, you're like, I'm out. Well, thank you again for taking the time. I'm glad we made it such an honor and such a pleasure. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. Enjoyed our conversation. It means a lot Yeah, meaning Yes, of course, of course. And yeah, well, we'll keep each other posted on, like, what's going on next, with what we're all you know, kind of navigating and absolutely, yeah, and then we'll include your info. People want to connect with you online. Where should they go? Oh, they can just go to my LinkedIn. Erin rich, yeah, absolutely, always available on LinkedIn. Yeah, awesome. Well, we'll include that in the show notes. But alright, thank you again. Erin. This is an oh my gosh, thank you. I appreciate all right, we'll do it again. Take care. You too. Bye.