Hey everybody, welcome to the latest episode of clover, our women in leadership podcast this week, I have a very dear friend of mine joining us, Tracy Kaplan, I was joking with her before we started recording, and I'm like, I'm not going to ask you what you're up to, because I want it in the episode. Because what isn't she up to? I don't know. Like, every time I turn around, she's like, launching this, leading this, like, Oh, should I do a podcast show? Sure. Like she's doing it all. So Tracy, my listeners are so used to me being like, let's jump right in. So what I love to ask people is tell us kind of like your origin story, like how you know you started and how you kind of made your way to where you are today. And I want to tell our audience, like, buckle up, because this has got to be quite the story with lots of twists and turns. So Tracy, take it away, sure, sure. And I do affectionately refer to my career as a hodgepodge. It's interesting because there was a period of time, and I will get to my backstory, but there was a period of time where, like, I was really insecure about that, and now I've just totally embraced it as, you know, something that has made me who I am, and kind of given me a lot of opportunities over the years. But I I started my career when, after I graduated college at WGBH in Boston, prior to that, I'd done an internship at ABC News and thought I was going to be, you know, the next, like, you know, news producer, but for, you know, various reasons, decided to go up to Boston instead. I will admit that reason. I'm still married to him, 2022, years later. But started at GBH in Boston, which was an amazing, place. I mean, it was right at kind of this moment where they were doing the digital transition and trying to figure that all out, and figuring out streaming and kind of how, how that was going to work within the public broadcasting system. So just a really, really cool time to be there. And then I left there. I was there for about seven years, and I left there to go to business school at Yale. And after that, was kind of looking and trying to think, Well, I would love to go to New York, but I can't afford to live in New York, you know, thanks, student loans. And I knew I just was ready for something different than Boston. My husband had grown up there. He also was eager for something different. And so we looked West and we said, you know, we told all of our family that we're East Coast based like, Oh, don't worry. This will be a three to five year situation. Then we'll be back. We are now going on. Can't do math right now, but about 18 years a house and two kids later, so I don't think we're going anywhere. So came out, came out to San Francisco, and I was super fortunate to get a role with CBS interactive at the time, because, you know, you would really think about them as either being LA or New York, but it turned out at the time that their interactive group was really being led out of San Francisco and so came came out was working kind of a civil Skunk Works team down in Menlo Park as We were trying to figure out, what does it mean for CBS to kind of go, go it alone and not join Hulu. So I'm aging myself here, but it's crazy now that Hulu is going away, and this was like the very early days of what is now paramount, plus. And then CBS bought all the CNET brand, and I got the amazing opportunity to meet you. So also was working with the tv.com team on video distribution, and it was, it was a fun ride. It was definitely an interesting time to be there. I apparently have this like seven year thing, because after seven years of being there, that's what I decided to move on. I've always been kind of thinking about, what are the pieces that I don't have in my career? And so I was feeling like I was really missing the mobile, really mobile and video and social, kind of those three buckets together. So I actually went to a video startup called snappy TV that was doing real time video clipping for social distribution, so hitting all those hitting all those points, and then they were acquired by Twitter. So I ended up at Twitter. And as I tell people, you know when I'm. Doing my backstory. This was pre Elon Musk, very, very different time. This was now 2014 2016 and really came into the whole video team at Twitter. So and we can go more into, like any particular era. You know, I have my own. Taylor Swift has much better errors than I do, but from there, I call that my video error was there for a couple years, and then, you know, I'm a, I'm an audio lover at heart. I love podcasts. I listen to them. It's my it's my medium of choice. And I really wanted to get into podcasting and audio. So then I left to go to tune in. Was running content, content partnerships there and then, before I went out on my own, I got an opportunity to join Patreon, where I was working directly with creators and really helping them build their memberships, figure out what subscription means in in the media space, and then left Patreon. Just before the pandemic happened, I was doing some consulting work in the membership space with supporting cast, which is a great platform for private feeds, and got a call from my friend Donald Albright over at tenderfoot, one of the biggest True Crime podcast companies, and he said, Hey, you know, I'm trying to figure out this membership team, this membership stuff. Could you come over and help me out? So started as a consulting gig with him, and five years later turned into, you know, I was still there, kind of basically acting as the GM for the company, overseeing subscription marketing, all of our distribution efforts, resource management, with the shows. So that that turned into a very wild ride. And then somewhere in there, I launched my own company, small but mighty media that makes podcasts for kids. So my main show, the 10 News, launched in September of 2020 and Donald was an EP. He helped me get the show off the ground. So it was really nice to have that support from somebody who knows the industry so well, and since then, I have two other shows under my belt, nature nerd, which is an exploration of nature in the south, and then the weekly roar, which is little bit for the younger set. And that's just all animal news and kind of the vein of Zootopia, where the host is Leland mcmain, a lion with a suit behind a news desk, so that that's kind of my, my side gig that I that I also refer to sometimes as my midlife crisis. But I love it. That's awesome. And then you're working with courier in capacity right now too. Yes, yes. So that is present day. So just back in April, I moved on from tenderfoot, still very close. I was actually just talking to someone before this interview over there. But I'm a news junkie at heart, and I really wanted to get back to that. And so an opportunity came up with courier for folks who aren't familiar with them. Courier is a digital newsroom. For the last six years, they've had state based newsrooms in about 11 different states. They're really, really committed to local journalism on the ground. And then about two years ago, they launched their national brand, which just blew up on Tiktok and Instagram. And so I saw it as a really great opportunity to bring what I know really well, which is sales and monetization, into a company that is really kind of doing the two things that I love, supporting local news and making sure that that's still viable and growing, and then also just reaching people who have kind of checked out of the the traditional news sources. And so there, I oversee their their sales and distribution. Okay? Very cool. I feel like it's almost full circle, yeah, to the newsroom. So, gosh, so much experience in such a wide range. How it's kind of cool, because I feel like you were kind of at the crossroads of so many, you know, digital innovations, right? And it's like, okay with the video, with audio, with podcast. And I do remember, like, when you and I were together, totally dating us, but we would have these conversations of like, when mobile was becoming a thing. And I remember being in these meetings, and we're like, is this the year, or is this the quarter where we need to figure out our ad? Ad Strategy for Mobile. And then we're like, No, not yet. People are not watching things on their phones. It's like, not time yet. You know that it was just like, Oh, was it? It's crazy. I look back, yeah. Then it flipped overnight, right? Yes, exactly. And we're like, not yet. Oh, yes. Now. Okay, so how? So, how did you kind of spot spotlight that. Like, how did you figure out, okay, now is the time to move to this. Now it's the time to move to that, you know, was it just like, an innate interest in yourself, or was it kind of like, okay, I see this industry, you know, that's about to explode. I'm going to move over there. Like, how, how did that kind of all happen? I would say I'm just super curious. And I've always been a big reader, and so when new technologies are coming out, I'm kind of doing it now with AI where I just I can't learn enough good and bad, right? I'm I'm immersing myself. And even though I certainly when it comes to AI, I do not see it as a replacement for the amazing, you know, creativeness that human beings have. I'm actively, like, almost forcing myself to use it because I don't want to be left behind of where it goes. So I've always had that kind of, just like, innate curiosity and wanting to make sure that I'm learning things. And then I would say the other piece is just that, like, I really enjoy being an observer. So you know, to your point about the video piece, I just remember going to Japan and seeing everybody on the subway there was watching videos on their phone, and that was about 10 years before we were doing it here. And so just kind of observing people, observing what they're doing. And you know, it helps me now, actually, with, you know, we just launched the sixth season of the 10 News and people ask me, like, Oh, where do you get your ideas for a lot of the stories that you cover and put in, I'm just, I'm paying attention to the questions and the things that I'm seeing people ask, or the conversations that I'm seeing people have to think about, like, Okay, this is where this conversation is heading. Or, Wow, I'm seeing now, in my circles, this technology starting to be, you know, adapted. And, you know, I'll joke like, I'm an old lady. So at this point, or at least like, you know, I definitely, there are times that I feel, you know, I'm, won't say, an old lady. I am a very comfortable middle aged woman. And so, you know, but I like to joke that, you know, I'm not a first mover anymore, but at the point that I see something bubbling up, you know, if I feel like I don't really know it and understand it, then that's a kind of a pause for me of like, okay, I need to, I need to carve out some time, and, you know, not, not fall into the trap of my kids showing me everything I know. Whenever that happens, I'm like, No, I am not going to be that person, like, I'm not going to write to my child and be like, explain this to me. Like, no, it's not. No, it has happened. But I'm like, it does happen. It does happen. There's I will also admit that I'm at a point now where I only have so much brain space for certain things anymore. So there are things that I've just decided to delegate to my children. Yeah, no, that's smart. That's fair. So another thing that you touched on, that I want to kind of dive into, is you're okay, so you're curious, like, Okay, I want to learn more about these things. And you just go, you know? And you're like, Well, I'm going to jump in. Whereas I think so many of us, and we were actually, I was talking about Cherie Werner, was on the show, and she is kind of like, the connector for startups in Austin, and I was asking her about women founders and all that kind of things. And she's like, I'm like, begging them to present, to pitch, you know, their ideas and all the things. And we got to talking about how so many times as women, we're kind of like, oh, well, we don't have all the experience. We don't check all the boxes, so we can't do that right. Now, what I love about you is that you're like, F that, like, I'm interested in it. I'm gonna hop right and so talk a little bit about that, if you wouldn't mind, of like, hey, I'm interested in this. I don't have tons of knowledge on it, but I know it's something I'm interested in. I want to learn more about it, and it's something I want to be involved in. And that doesn't the lack of foundational knowledge or mastering something does not hold you back, which I love. So if you could just expand upon that a little bit further, of how you kind of tackle that in your in your career, and I'll be the first to say, like I have real imposter syndrome. It is, it is a constant battle to kind of tell that voice to be quiet. But I think the key thing that I just lean into a lot is I'm not afraid to ask questions and seek out help. So going back to our. Early days of knowing each other. You know, I was tasked with being the first Partner Manager for this video product, product that CBS was building, and really be the person between the partners that we needed to develop deep relationships with and the product team that were so busy and heads down just building it. And I realized really quickly that the only way this was going to work is, was if I could be able to speak all the languages, so be able to speak with the product team and the engineers in a way that that, you know, we could communicate and they understood what I was trying to do, and then speak with the partners, you know, with their language and explain what we were trying to do. And I knew nothing about RSS feed technology, but I have a very smart husband who's an engineer, so and we had an hour commute from Menlo Park back to San Francisco. So we would get in the car, and I would be like, Okay, today's class. On RSS, go and, you know, I I've always done that of just who, who can I reach out to? And I always make sure to return the favor. If you're someone who has given me advice or taken time to explain something to me, I will always do the same and make time for you. But I think that's been my secret sauce is, rather than shying away from what I don't know, fully embracing it and looking for the people who either can help me fill my knowledge gap or that I could bring together as as team members to build something together. So going back to the 10 News I had never created content myself. I don't put myself out there. As you know, I'm not an educator, I'm not a journalist, but I'm a damn good producer, and so that I knew that I could bring the right people together to get this off the ground. And so I think that's the other piece. Is like, when you're looking at a sea of things that you don't know know how to do, really lean into what you can do. And there's also that adage that people say of like, leading, you know, saying you're like, lean into your strengths and all that. And I will say up to a point where, sorry, I'll start that again. You'll have to add at this. But you know where people, where people are always trying to tell you to, like, overcome your weaknesses. I actually really believe in leaning into your strengths, because ideally, that will get to you, get you to a point where you can hire for your weaknesses. So you know, when I need an expert in something and it's not something that I know that I can get up to speed fast enough there's amazing talent out there. I will find someone that I can bring in to then be that person and give them the support that they need to be successful. Yeah, no, that's so smart. I agree with that, for sure. And even within a certain niche, I feel like you're, you know, run the gamut and like topics as well, right? So when we look at the 10 News, when we look at, you know, you know, the true crime, you know, podcast, I mean, such different audiences, right? And so it's like, how, how do you, how do you come up with, like, okay, distribution and partnerships for all of these things that are, like, completely different, you know? So how do you, how do you manage that and kind of navigate it? As you said, You are a damn good producer, and, you know, with that comes partnerships and distribution. It's like, but these things do not, they're not the same at all, you know. So kind of, how do you manage that, you know? So there's this amazing woman, Susan McPherson, who is a brilliant connector. She actually wrote a book called The Art of connecting. Encourage everyone to read it, and I think I approach my work with just that common of I want to hear what people are doing and try to figure out how to connect the pieces to then make it successful. So if it's true crime or a kid show, I'm really just unpacking like, is this quality? Is this something that is going to either educate someone, inspire them, engage them, like the actual what it is I feel like can actually be interchangeable, because it's really just about like, you know, what is it? What does it take to engage audiences, and does this piece of content, or does this project that I'm working on, does it have that? Yeah, and how do you. You grow the audience as well, like, so, two questions, two parter. So what? What inspired you to create a show specifically for kids, which, by the way, when that show first launched, attend youth, my kid, my kiddos were of the age, or it was so perfect for them, you know? So I was like, listen to my friend Tracy show. It was so great. So, and you've, you've gotten, like, I don't even know, like Lego, like Ashton, all these amazing guests on it. So you know, first of all, what inspired you to even launch a show for kids? And then secondly, like, How have you grown it, and how have you kind of gotten the word out, and are able to get such high caliber guests that kids are actually interested in too? Yeah, I love, I love talking about our origin story. It does feel like such a different time, especially because my kids were eight and 10 at the time, and now they're 13 and 15, but at the time, so I'd said I was consulting, and it really was the first time I was home. I i love my children, I love my family life. I also love to work. And that's just, that's how I'm wired. And so I've always had, you know, a lot of travel in the jobs that I've done. And so this was a shift for me, where now I was doing it was, it was before the lockdown of the pandemic, but I was doing the everyday pickup at three o'clock, and I listened to NPR at three o'clock and hearing kind of the stories that they were covering, and being in the pickup line and having to immediately turn it off, because, you know, whoever was programming, I lived in San Francisco, so whoever was programming KQED was not thinking about that my children were about to get in the car, and that they were covering a topic that I was not prepared, as a parent, for them to overhear and start to talk about. So that was kind of the first thing that was happening. Was like realizing that now that I was home in the afternoons with the kids, like, you know, my current habit of just kind of having my ear, you know, having my earbuds in and listening to the afternoon news coverage wasn't fitting now and then, the second thing that happened was we went into lockdown. And, you know, like most families, we were just, you know, struggling to survive with Zoom school, and, you know, the kids being on screens. And I've always been pretty involved. I mean, I used to manage the CBS YouTube relationship, so I used to be pretty involved in kind of paying attention to what they were watching on YouTube. And one day we were sitting around, and I asked them, I said, Do you know who's running for the Democratic primary? Because that's, that's where we were in, in kind of the time of year. And without missing a beat, they both went, Mike, we'll get it done. And no shade to Mike Bloomberg, I don't know that he realized that he was capturing the eight to 10 market with his campaign ads on YouTube. But it was, it was that realization that here I've been so focused on the content, I wasn't even thinking about the ads that they were seeing on this platform, and that, you know, political ads were kind of shaping their view of the world around them. So that's when I really just started talking to parents, realizing that also with kids being so disconnected from their teachers, from their classmates, that there was this real need here for a show that families could listen to together, that wouldn't shy away from tough topics, but also could be a show that really felt like theirs, and we actually, I got a team together, and we piloted about, I think it was like four to five episodes that have never seen the light of day, and it was strictly, it was just for us to figure out the tone of The Show. What do parents need? We sent it to a whole bunch of parents and kids for their feedback, and it was really just us workshopping. You know, what is needed in this moment? It was during Black Lives Matter, during the pandemic shutdown. And so by the time we officially launched in September of 2020, you know, we had a good sense of what we wanted the show to be. And, you know, even now, six years later, I'm still tweaking it all the time, I bet, I bet. Yeah, so how did you, how did you grow it to what it was to now? And, you know, like I said, you would you get really high caliber guests to be on it, you know, and everything contributors. So talk a little bit about that, like, how are those, I mean, still growing years, right? But how was that, you know, from from then to now? Yeah, I think it goes back to that. I've just never been afraid to ask and lean on my connection. So a dear friend had the connection to. To Dr Fauci. And so this was December of 2020, and I just wasn't afraid to put it out there, because I figured, worst case, he says no, and the best case happened. It's one of my favorite episodes. He came on, and we had amassed a bunch of questions from kids who asked him, you know, we directly played for him, the kids questions to respond to and and to me that that's just such a highlight, because I don't ever pretend that I know what's in a kid's head. So there are definite times where I'll be thinking that they're worried about something else, or they want to ask something else to a guest, and then what pops out is the most earnest, Wonderful question that I never as an adult could have put, you know, put together. So those are my favorite moments. But again, you know, not being afraid to ask and really showing that what we are doing is meeting a need. So whenever I ask a guest to come on, I always send them examples of the work that we've done. I'm fortunate at this point that the show has won awards, so other people have validated the work that we're doing. But I just, I really make sure that any asks that I'm putting out there, it's not just a like, Hey, you want to do this like, I'm prepared with, here's why we're asking you, here's who we are, here's what this will look like. So I just, I make it a very easy, yes, yeah, yeah. That's great, you know. And kind of like, what they're going to get out of it, and how they're going to impact and all of that, rather than just like we'd love to have you, yeah, no, right, right, makes sense. So we talked a little bit earlier. I mean, you've launched subscription channel models. I mean, you're a lot of the programs are just these top listed programs, Apple, what have you podcasting. It's changed, you know, since it's, you know, since it started. And I'm curious on, like, kind of, like your take and especially monetization around podcast, right? So I'm curious kind of your take on, like, where it is now and where it's headed podcasting in general, as well as, like, the monetization of it. Yeah, when I was at tenderfoot, I had the privilege to be one of the first partners in the Apple channel subscription program that they were building. And that's always fun when, when you have a partner who's like, Hey, I'm I'm building this thing, do you want to be, you know, our first partner, and you know you have to commit to it, knowing that things are going to break all the time and exactly, but like, you're learning together with a partner, which is, which is always, always fun for me, and I really believe in kind of choice for consumers. So when I'm looking at monetization options, and especially with subscription, like, there's the very transactional, like, Apple is super transactional. A company like tenderfoot, like you don't get any data on who those people are. People are just signing up to get, you know, a very discreet I get ad free episodes, or I get bonus content. And then you have at the other end of the spectrum, companies like Patreon or, you know, areas where you can kind of give someone a tip, and that's very more like, I would say, very more emotional, altruistic, like, you know, I worked with a bunch of creators when I was a Patreon who, you know, had patrons who they never cared, if they they never had like access to any of the content they were getting. They just wanted to give to make sure that that person could still keep creating what they were doing. So I always look at kind of things on that spectrum, and think about, you know, also as a business, are you diversified? So if the ad market softens, do you have your membership base to lean on? If we're in a period where people are cutting back, anyone who's running a subscription program will tell you January and February are the scariest times of the year, because that's when everyone kind of looks and decides like, you know, I'm going to do my budget for the year. Here are the things that I'm going to cancel. And like, they usually cancel in January, and then it hits in February. So, you know, also thinking about like, you can't just solely rely on subscription to run your business, it's really healthy to find something, you know, in between the 10 News, for example, there, there really is not a robust ad market in the kids space. And so I fund that through donations. So I partnered with a fiscal sponsor who who handles all of the nonprofit reporting requirements, you know, for me, and works with me on that. And. And that way people who want to support the show, who donate, they can get their their tax donation, their tax benefit for supporting the show. And so that then there is another kind of avenue for people to be thinking about, especially if you're doing something in the nonprofit space or the advocacy space, you know, really looking at grant dollars and funds from foundations that might be able to support you. So that's kind of how I look at it. Is like give consumers the choice, depending on if they feel more like emotionally tied to you, or just want the choice to be able to pay to not have ads, and then for where, for where the industry is going. That's a tough one. Yeah. Again, as somebody who loves the power of audio, I'm a little not just me, it's the right word, but you know, just I'm watching with, I'm watching the move into everything has to be video. You know that every podcast now is under such pressure for it to be a video podcast. You know, the 10 News, the team is fully remote. You know, I when I started, you know, recording ads for the show, because I have two co hosts, though, I just come in as the, you know, sometimes I'm written in as the, the mean producer character, or I'm recording the ads. But like, you know, I recorded, you know, in my daughter's bunk bed with a sheet. You know that that's not going to be on video. So, you know, and I, I also truly love the connection that happens when you're listening to someone's voice, or when you're listening to a story and it's pure audio. So I hope that, again, I love choice. I love having options, the inclusivity of having options, but I hope that the kind of rush to video doesn't mean that people stop thinking about the audio component and the richness and the intimacy that comes from audio. Yeah, I agree. It's it's really funny, because it's like, okay, video is video is king, and everything has been video. But there's still quite a few large scale podcasts that are sticking to their guns. They are like, we are audio. This is what, you know, yeah. And, you know, I will say, when I listen to podcasts, I'm not watching the video nine times out of 10, even if there is a video component, like I am running I'm in my car, you know, that sort of a thing. And it really is that that audio connection, like even Kelly Ripa has a podcast. Let's talk off camera. And she's, it's off camera so they don't, you know, and that's a, that's a perk for her guest, you know, she had Oprah on, and she was like, Yeah, I said yes, because you're like, off camera. Heck, yeah. Like, that's one listening to worry about hair makeup. You know, I think people can be more organically themselves. They're not worrying about what they're looking like. What is my background? You know, that kind of thing too. So there's something to be said, you know, for audio, as you were saying. And you know, in addition to these big names that you've you've gotten on your podcast like you've gotten, you know, worked with and supported and did partnerships with big names in podcast land, like Spotify Apple, I heart. I mean, you name it, you've worked with them in your own company. Small but mighty media is going strong, right? So how, how do you like, what makes for that like a truly, like, strong, long term partnership in media? Because it's such a fickle industry, but I feel like you figured it out, you know, and somehow you forged these amazing partnerships, and they've lasted quite a while. So, you know, talk about that a little bit of how you've sort of navigated that. Yeah, it's interesting, because I'm as much as, like we've talked about my career and me being willing to, you know, ask anyone for help or reach out, I will say the one thing that I like have shied away from, that I'm pushing myself to do more, is actually things like this, like putting my own name on things. A lot of people in the industry know me, but not from being like, Oh, she was the speaker at that event. Like they know me for my work, which is, which is a great thing to be known for, and with that, they know that I'm responsive, I'm direct. So if something's not working, I'll be the first to just say, hey, this isn't working. And they they know that I care and that I care about is this a good partnership, that we're both getting something out of it, rather than like a zero sum game, but, but it is interesting that, like I I'm at a point now where I'm I'm starting to be more. Comfortable with putting myself out there. And I think it's just, you know, I now have the energy to do that in a way that I that I didn't before. But I always say that, just like, you know, someone emails you like, email them back, you know, and don't be afraid to pick up a phone call. And as tiring as it is, I was in DC the last couple days, and like, I just made a point to reach out to people that I haven't seen in a while, and even if it was just grabbing a coffee, just really making making time to stay connected to people. And it's, it's not easy. You have to be really intentional about it. But it's, I think it's just so worth it. Yeah, so it's all about the relationship, kind of like building and nurturing those relationships. And so, like, leadership wise, we talked about how you've created, you know, you've built, you've managed these teams, and, you know, you did not pick a low pressure career. These are, like, high pressure environment. So a lot, a lot of you know, things are on the line. So what is your philosophy on leading people through growth, through change, you know, my gosh, through the pandemic. I mean, you've seen so much change and so so much growth in these industries, and innovation change and all that. So how do you kind of lead people through all of that, I think I'm not afraid to roll up my sleeves and do the grunt work when it needs to happen, like if my team is underwater, I will be the first to be right there doing the work with them. And i i Maybe, maybe that's not always the right thing. I don't know. Maybe it runs counter to, like management, like management books, but you know, I, and I'll say, you know, in a way that's not like, you know, only when everybody is struggling and needs and needs to know that they're not alone. Because the idea really try to give my, anyone who's worked for me, you know, visibility, opportunities for growth. You know, really like, and I'll say, like, sometimes I'm not easy. Like, I push, and I push for a reason, because I'll see in a team member. Like, no, I think you can do this. So I'm going to give you this opportunity to do it. I'm going to be here when you need help. So like, you know, I'm not going to just put you out to fail, but yeah, I think it's that. It's this combination of, like, I will push people who work for me. But when push comes to shove, very into pushing right now, apparently I will be right there next to them trying to figure something out, if, if they need help. I never just kind of leave them out to to be, you know, flailing in the wind or figuring stuff out. I will say I'm not. I will be honest. I'm not good with work life balance. And so, you know the the kind of adage where, like, you're better at giving other people advice and taking your own advice, like, I'm very supportive, but my team needs work life balance. I'm awful about it for myself. No, that tracks. Yeah, no, for sure, yeah. So it's all about kind of like demanding, but having a support structure in place as well, so that you know you're not hanging somebody out to dry. You're actually partnering them with them and their their growth. And so as you kind of look back in your your own career, like, is there any kind of moments that stand out that were pretty pivotal, and then also, like, what advice would you give people, especially women, who are navigating the media or podcast industry at the moment? Yeah, I would say so pivotal moments, I would say were times where, like, I was so invested in a role, but couldn't see kind of the politics that were happening around me. And that's always been like a hard thing for me. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm who I am. And I'm not good at playing politics. I'm, you know, I just want to do the the work, you know, and and lift up my team. And, you know, I struggle with, you know, situations where there's where, if I feel like something just like, is getting a little like, why are we doing that? Like, that's where, you know, I I've struggled in my own career. So I feel like the the moments that I come back to are those moments where, like, I had to make a real conscious choice of, like, wow, this isn't the place for. Me anymore, and, you know, just different times in my career where I thought a job, where I thought I was going to be there for, you know, the rest of my career, and then things were shifting, or the organization was going in a different direction, and I had to realize, like, Okay, I now have to separate what I thought I wanted from what is actually like happening here and happening in front of me. So yeah, that I wouldn't say like that. They're like, it's, it's been, you know, a series of a couple of times that that's happened, you know, in my career, where I've just been like, oh, okay, this is, this is no longer the place that I thought it was, and I need to feel, you know, confident in moving on, yeah? I mean, that's a skill in and of itself, you know? I think others people, they just kind of like, hang on to the bitter end, yeah? Like, good situation. So any kind of insight for you know, anybody, really, but in particular, women who are in this industry today, any kind of, kind of, in addition to what you just shared, like a, you know, how to navigate this. I mean, I guess it's less male dominated than it used to be, but I don't know just your thoughts on that, yeah. And I would say courier right now, is much less male dominated than other other spaces that I've been in. But you know, I've definitely had many years of being the only female in the room. And I would say, you know, find finding your allies, both male and female. I think you know that's really important, both in your company and outside. Because, again, I think you can get so focused on what's happening within your company, and then if something, you know, if you're ready to move on, either because you need a new challenge or something that's not going right. Like, have you now, do you have enough of a network outside that there are people who are, you know, thinking of you when job opportunities come up, or, you know, can vouch for your reputation when, when something comes up. So I would say allies and like, please don't tear down other women. I've seen that happen a lot. And I like, I get it like, you know, like, work can be competitive, but that just doesn't help in the long run. And like, you know, we really have to be looking out for each other. And I try to do that again, of just like, you know, looking at younger people on my team and thinking about, like, Okay, what's, you know, yeah, I could do this project, but this would be a great thing for me to bring that person in on because now they're going to know, and then, you know, selfishly, then maybe I could go on vacation and cover my work. Yeah, no, that's a really good point. You know, we just need to support each other, you know for sure, you know, because we've all hopefully benefited from that in the past, and it's like, let's just kind of keep moving it forward. And if so, if you kind of like, if you're just thinking blue skies and you could green light any project, no constraints, no budget constraints. Is there anything that you're like, Oh, if I had opportunity, I would really love to make this I think. And it's funny, you know, my brain pops up with so many ideas over the years. I have, like, you know, a closet full of ideas that I didn't, I didn't move on. But right now, like, I'm really thinking a lot, a lot about kids and a lot about parents and like, what do we need in this moment. And so I'm not sure tangibly what it would be, but I think something that would, you know, be kind of the next level beyond the 10 News, like, really, like, you know, workshops and and going around the country and giving, giving kids and families a chance to really meet and talk with each other. Because I think that's I had a soapbox for a little while. I still kind of believe this, though my soapbox that, like, I wish we all that there was, this is what I would do. I wish there was a program similar to the Peace Corps, where everyone was incentivized, regardless of economic socioeconomic everyone had the ability to take a year and go to a different part of the US and really be exposed to people who are different than you, and do some public service work. And, you know, and I know there's some, like, there's obviously, there's Teach for America, like, there's some just, like, amazing. But like, I would want it to be mandated and funded to a level that, like, it could be mandated that. Everyone could do it. And I just, I don't know, I know this is, it probably sounds so sappy, but like, that would be my dream, because I do feel that if we, if we were just exposed to, like, really understanding, like, okay, that's I get your struggle now I get what you know, like you always say, like, nobody goes, nobody knows what's going on inside somebody's relationship, except for those two people in the relationship. And so, you know, I just feel that, and especially now more, we're just so divided. And you know, what would this country look like if we really had a moment to, you know, spend in each other's shoes and and really like, do some work in each other's communities. Yeah, I love that. I'm going to send you this episode of Trevor Noah's podcast, because they he has some episodes where it's like, if, if I rule the world and so, and it was, it's him, and, you know, two guests that he'll have on his friends, and one of them said similar, you know, like, it should be required travel, you know, whatever. And I want to say they did, because then they'll vote on, like, okay, whether or not, like, that should pass. And I think that they did vote on it and that show that it should be, you know, something that is a thing in the world. So, but I wholeheartedly agree, because it's, it's almost, yeah, I mean, so many people can't afford to travel right abroad, outside of their own country, that sort of a thing. And so they'll, you know, they'll learn on the internet, but they'll never, actually, you know, be able to immerse themselves in different cultures in that way. So especially over here in the States, we're so siloed, you know, we're not, you know, it always, it always amazes me. It's always so fascinated. And people live over in Europe, and they're like, Oh, I'm going over here this weekend. Totally different country, you know, right? I'm going right here. And I'm like, that's incredible. So, yeah, no, I love that. Okay, so if people want to connect with you online, what's the best way to do that? So you can try me on Instagram, which is Tracy Kaplan SF, or Hello at the 10 news.com, and that's spelled out, t, N, S, not the number 10. So hello at the 10 news.com, awesome. Very cool. And then there's this fun, I think it's fun question that I ask everybody, because we're totally music heads over here, if you could only listen to one music artist for the rest of your life, who would it be? Wow, you did not prepare me for that. I did not. I'm gonna, I'm all right, I'm gonna say Taylor Swift, okay? Only you know because I, I feel like she, she puts out smoked, there's always gonna be something. So I I was not full disclosure. I was not a Swifty, and I had just a general appreciation for her music. And then my daughter and I went to one of the one of the concerts, the errors tour and her endurance, athleticism and like engagement with her fans was just so inspiring. So when I'm thinking about music, like, I don't even know all of her songs, but I just feel like it would take me back to that, that moment, you know, with my daughter, and just like, being there with this packed stadium that was just so excited to see her and and just this, like, joyful moment that was happening for for three hours. So, yeah, that's, that's what I'm going with. Yeah, no, I yeah, that's, I totally understand that. And she does. She has, like, a good variety of music of, like, okay, depending upon your mood or like, you know, right, you're in, as she probably has a song for that. And I know exactly what you mean. Like, being in, like, this, like, packed stadium and everyone's just, like, aligned and like, ready, you know? And, yeah, we, we went to see Tyler, The Creator, in Chicago, the four of us, my husband and the two kiddos, and we're all peach fans. And the week he was here in Austin, it was spring break, we weren't here. And so our kids were like, how about Chicago? Like, okay, so. But, like, it was at the United Center, and it was like, 30, 35,000 people, and he sold out both nights, and everybody. It brought tears to my eyes, quite honestly, yeah, because everybody was there, everyone's just in lockstep, everyone's singing. You really hear him, you know. And so it was just so cool to see the still large, you know, percentage of people just kind of like in it together. It was really, yeah, very beautiful, yeah. And that, that emotional connection is just Yeah, gets me every time. Yeah. It's huge. It's. Tracy, thank you so much for being on the show. I was so excited. I get to chat with my friend, how awesome. I get to chat with my friends, so cool. And then I'm like, and I get to catch up at the same time. It's pretty incredible. So thank you for your time. I really do appreciate it. I'm so grateful. Thank you for having me. This was fun. Bye.