Heather. Welcome everybody to the latest episode of the clover podcast I have with me, Heather Trump Feller, oh my god, Heather. I had just so much fun even chatting with you before we started, like, I guess I should hit record. But welcome, welcome. Welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you. Thank you for having me. I love it so cool. And so Heather is a fellow Austinite, so we both live in the fair city of Austin, which I always love. You know, when I get to connect to others, especially females in the biz in this city. So we do actually need to catch up in person as well. Since we are in certain proximity, let's do it. But Heather, so I told you, I always just jump right in, and I would love to hear your journey. I feel everybody has a story, and I'm here for it. So what you know? How did you start out and weave in personal stuff as well. I mean, I think that's always part of somebody's story. It's not we're not just our jobs, you know, but what led you to where you are today? Yeah? Well, I'm excited to share and be vulnerable and really put it all out there, because I agree. I would say biggest themes in my life have been storytelling, community and relationships, right? So being here, even on a podcast like we get to do all the above, because those each look different in different seasons. I grew up in Dallas and went to South Lake, if there's any DFW listeners on here, I studied broadcast journalism. I was the five year old who would walk around with a hairbrush so sure of herself just asking questions and telling stories, and would just truly like walk up to a stranger and ask them how they felt about something with my my hairbrush, right? We were talking, I probably interviewed my beanie babies, like the ones you have in the backyard or the back behind you, but I went to study Broadcast Journalism at University of Missouri, and I worked there for four years at an NBC station, and then I wanted to get back to Dallas. And being in the journalism world, it's hard to get some bigger markets, so I career pivoted, which was really hard. I was very afraid to give myself permission to change my mind, so I'm sure we'll probably come back to that, but that was something that was really hard for me. Was just giving myself permission to change my mind. But I pivoted to public relations, which was similar in the vein of being in the media world, but completely different. But I didn't really vibe with it as much, because then I was pitching stories that, honestly, I would have never covered as a journalist, that really being on the other end, I wasn't overly passionate about and then pivot again through a random connection at a central market grocery store, I met a gentleman and was telling him, just talking to him in line, and he was like, You need to be in sales. And I was like, sir, I'm a journalist. And he was like, tell me about being a journalist. And I was like, Well, I meet people. I get to know them. I ask open ended questions, I build rapport, I advocate on their behalf. And he was like, okay, so you're in sales, and it was probably one of the first times someone was able to look at it like, not unbiased, like they did not know me from 1000 foot view, and be like you have these transferable skills that transcend a specific industry or career. And so my identity was so rigid in this again, like I can't change my mind, like I could pivot without, like, full spending on changing my mind. But he gave me his business card. He was like, Call me if you want to do sales. And the next morning, I called him, and I was like, let's chat. And then I worked for this man for 11 years, and he changed my life in so many ways. And ultimately, he moved me to Boston, and that's how I ended up here for the tech company I was at. And because I grew so much and because they poured so much into me, I ended up evolving to a place where I felt like I had to leave the company just because I didn't fit anymore. And I think that's another thing that, especially women, we sometimes struggle with, right of just thank you for pouring into me, but it's time to go. This season has ended, so I had to grieve a little bit of that, but ultimately, step out on my own, and then I embarked on a six month journey of really just trying to find clarity. And through that, I ended up in the startup world, and now I'm on two different startup platforms that are both really aligned with what I'm doing, with who I am through all these pivots, right? They're both community referral platforms, essentially. So that's not how I met Aaron here in the female Founder World in Austin, but that's a little bit of my resume history. I would say, yeah, no, I love it. I love that. You You know, you're just like, pivoting left and right and kind of giving your permission to do so, I think so many times we don't. We're like, nope. We said we went to school for this, and we said we were going to do this. And, you know, you have blinders on and that's it, and you miss so many opportunities. And you know, if you're so close. To that. So talk a bit about that. Like, how, how did you allow yourself, or give yourself permission to be like, You know what? I'm gonna shift over here, pivot over there, even though like wasn't on my radar at, yeah, it's so funny the Central Market story, because you hear people get like, discovered, you know? And it's like, it's almost like you were discovered. I actually just shared that in that way. I spoke at University of Texas on Tuesday this week, and I actually said that I'm like, you know how the models are always like, they found me in the mall. Mine was like, I heard her talk, heard her yapping out a central market. And was like, she could Yap for my company. And it really was a little bit of just mentorship and community comes from different angles, like I always, I always think like people often only network when they're looking for a job, and that is a missed opportunity, because if you only network when you need it, you're behind. You would proactively need to have that community. And then also, I think when people are only networking for their company, like you need to represent yourself, because if you leave your company, because that was something that I learned. I had been at this tech company for 11 years, and when I left, I was like, Oh, wow. I know a lot of people, but they only know me through this lens, and that most recently was particularly like government technology. And I was like, that's not the space that I'm staying in. So I need to make sure I'm networking on behalf of Heather. And I think that's why, like, LinkedIn uses really specific language of second connection, because that's where the magic often happens, right? The people who know you super well, they've got blind spots for you, and they are delusionally like, Oh no, Aaron Heather, you're too good for that. Or like, that's not the right fit. But the second connection, the person who's really indifferent, right? That might be the central market person, that might be someone from a networking event, they're more likely to have a connection that you could actually take advantage of, and would actually be a foot in the door. And so I always tell people, too, it's like networking does not just look like navigating a career path, journey or looking for a job or finding a specific mentor for a reason. And also, I feel like people often only have mentors at their company. If you only have a mentor at your company, you're probably not going to get help with career pivoting. So just so much, so much there, so much there. Like my mind is going so and on the mentorship thing too, I feel like it's, it's not finding one mentor that's going to like, be there for everything, because I've talked to so many, you know, women in leadership, and we're just like, What is a mentor? Like? When people come to me and ask me, Well, you be my mentor. It's like, what is that? Because it's like, I can counsel you on certain aspects of, you know, certain expertise and that sort of a thing. But to, like, have, like, a weekly call and sit down and, you know, and it's like, when things are so fluid, you know, like, what? What is your stance on? Like, so, yeah, mentorship, you know, I love that, because I've actually been reflecting on that, because right now I'm in two formal mentorship programs, right? Like, I'm have a mentor. I'm a mentor to mentees in a formal capacity. And then I would also say I'm mentoring people in different avenues, like, I don't drink alcohol, right? I actually, today is my two year sober anniversary. Thank you, yes, but I've mentored people through things like that, where it's been a couple of specific, tailored ways. Honestly, half of them start through like Instagram, like hey, thank you for sharing. I'm really struggling with alcohol numbing as well. Can I pick your brain? Or what are some good resources you have, or what are some good non alcoholic beverages you love? Like, that's mentoring. But then I have these, like, formal programs where it's like, this is our strategic plan, this is your outcome. But I find myself in those more formal avenues being less vulnerable, and sometimes the rigidity is actually a barrier. And when you're just sort of like organic and raw with someone, that mentorship is where the magic happens. And so I'm actually trying to redefine even what it means for me to have mentees and the being a mentor in a more formal capacity. But I totally agree, and half of the most effective mentors in my life have been, like you said, seasonally starting a certain area, and most are personal and less than professional, like if you see a job at your current company you want, yes, maybe go find someone who's in that exact role and have them pour into you. But half the time, they probably don't come from your company, because they're caring about Heather, the human, not Heather, the person that the revenue is tied to exactly. And I think there's something to be said for specificity, you know, because then it's like, be my mentor. It's like, well, for what aspect, right? Because I have knowledge on certain things, or I can guide you through x, y, z. So I think for so many, you know, we come to the table with like, well, I just need a mentor. Check that box, you know, rather than like, 1,000% right? I think the same thing about that's how people look at networking too, is they're like, oh, I have to go to a networking event this month. Well, if you don't show up in a posture of intentionality with goals, right? You need to have goals for a mentorship program. You need to have goals for networking. So I always tell people, like, if you're going to go to an event, have a goal of maybe I want to meet three people, and I'm going to follow up with one of them, and this is who I want to present myself as. Like, I want to leave that conversation with them knowing this about me, and sometimes it's that intentional, but I agree, like, if formal and intentional aren't always the same thing, yeah? And it's like, and don't be intimidated, you know, because somebody like, I'm going to this networking event, and I have to, you know, be intentional. And it's like, yes, but it can be intentional even so far as I'm going to have fun tonight, I'm going to meet someone cool, yes, you know, great. That's a goal. That's intention. Yeah, too. I even took that so when I was looking for a job, right? So every single job I've ever found has been through networking. So I also think I've seen the fruit from it, right? So if you're an introvert who's really stressed about it and has never gotten a job from networking, I can see why. Maybe that's you're a little more put off by it for me, like, I luckily never had to, like, make a resume, to blindly submit to a company. So that is just to share, like, the lens that I'm coming from. But I think for me, being able to tell your story is so effective. That's why that man hired me in a central market, because I, in 30 seconds, was able to be like, This is who I am. This is what I want to do. These are the these are my superpowers. These are my transferable themes and my career. And I think storytelling and brand have really evolved in a beautiful way. But there's also the the lens of social media and like, what you put out there in the world, right? I think it's powerful because we're getting more and more control over it, but you really do, like, the more raw and vulnerable you show up. Like, that's potential that people see. Like, people want to be around potential, right? Exactly. And I love that, because it's like, it's almost like operationalizing relationships, quite honestly, yes. So we all know, like, okay, relationships drive business. And by the way, I started learning golf a few months ago, so maybe I could put that into practice on the golf course. We'll see you. There you go. So a lot of us don't really systematize it, right? So it's like, Are there any kind of like, structures that you've put around, like, using relationship building, you know, do you Yeah? Do you see it as, like, scalable and measurable? I kind of talk a little bit about that too. Yeah. Well, I so in the vein of networking and things like that, I always make myself have action items. So on Fridays from two to 230 my calendar is blocked for networking follow ups. And it literally is like, I've got some of them here. It's like, the business cards that I'm going to email that person. It's the person I added on LinkedIn that I wanted to actually review their profile. Whatever it might be, there's always some form of like, relationship capital follow up. And I think that's the thing is, people often think like, Oh, if we didn't organically set the meal like we weren't supposed to meet, and I am, like, too busy, people have schedules. Like, it takes intentionality again, right? Like, I feel like I've said that word too much, but I have carved in some operating rhythm, time around relationships, and if I didn't go to a networking event this week or a conference or something like that. Sometimes it's truly just engage with people on LinkedIn, or see someone that you used to work with that's looking for a job, and write them a review or a referral on LinkedIn right like there's some form of moving the relationships forward that I try to do weekly that is really important. So I think again, it can feel operational and transactional at some times, but it's also just a muscle you have to practice. And now it's so embedded in it that I don't even think about it anymore. And half the time, like we, you know, Aaron and I meet at it's an organization here in Austin called Fiesta, and when they send the follow up email of, this is who you met at it, this is who was at the event. I always go through that, and I'm like, let's read who was there, who needs to meet this, who are some connections I can have. And I think that's the other thing is sometimes relationships start with you being the one giving right? You might have the connection for that person. You might have met someone who's looking for a job, and you know someone at the company that they're interviewing at that you can connect them with. And so I also think, if we're only going from this lens of like, well, I didn't learn anything, I didn't meet anyone that pushed me along, I'm not going to go back like, that's not the posture to have, right, exactly. And so, and for you, like, you started in journalism, right? And so, and then you move to sales, both of those rely. Heavily on communication, you know, communication habits, right? So what communication habits have you kind of formed? Because people will be like, Okay, great. Like, I got it like, be intentional with the networking. This will be myself. Let's tell a story, you know. So what kind of tips do you have in that? Like, how can because you could use that as an edge in business, in your business, right? And so, but you want to keep people engaged, you know, yeah. But how do you kind of, like, use that storytelling as a strategy, honestly? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, definitely the follow up, right? I always tell people, you know, don't, don't knock the cold call. But back to even the same way of mentorship, have a specific ask. Like, if you just DM someone like, Hey, thanks for connecting. Would love to grab coffee. Like, there's that's not a really compelling ask. But if it's like, Thanks for the connection. I saw we were both at this women in tech outing your profile says this, like, I also come from a supply chain background space. Would love to pick your brain on blank or whatever it might be, like the specific ask. So that's kind of what I started learning, is people genuinely want to connect and help, but they can't have to fill in the blanks of the what's in it for me and vice versa, kind of tell them, like, here's what I'm hoping to gain out of this, and here's what I'm offering you in return. And I think especially like college students, they're always like, why would that person want to mentor me? Or why would that person want to meet with me? And I'm like, sometimes it's just truly the dopamine of helping someone else feels really good, but it was hard because, you know, I was in journalism, and then I went into an uncapped commission sales role where so much of my worthiness was tied to achievements, and so much of my worthiness and success was tied to likability. If a customer didn't want to meet with me, maybe they were busy, but I'm like, they hate me, and it was super unhealthy, though, because then I'm tying all of these metrics with my own self worth, and you know, then I'm this boundary list person. And I would say, if someone were to ask me, like, what's the biggest lesson you've learned in the last year? It's that boundaries truly are a gift, like they are incredible. I wish I would have learned them earlier in every area of my life. But I also think there's this like, lens of, like, not having boundaries with friends because we think, or, like, networking connections or things like that, because it's like, oh, I want them to like me, but sometimes the boundary is what makes them stay liking you, right? And so I think just learning a little bit of that too, but definitely the follow up. I also think if remembering connections is not organic for you, it's not icky to have systems, right? Like I make in my calendar a once a month, like follow up with these person in the same way I add my friends, kids, birthdays, my calendar. You can be like, follow up with Aaron, or listen to Aaron's new podcast and hit subscribe, right? You can make these reminders in your calendars. And I feel like we think something should be more organic than they are, and that feels icky. But I also think just like develop a system that works for you, I often just take notes in my iPhone too. Of met this person. This is what we talked about, the job my memory. And sometimes when you type it or write it down, you remember it a little bit easier to as you're, like, newly developing a relationship with that person. But I think having systems in place is huge. Yeah, no, I agree. And people can use that in the personal life too. It's just once you kind of take the ickiness out of it being like about business, like you realize, Wait, I do things, these things, my personal life as well. You might move to a neighborhood and you put notes, oh, two houses down from New York, you know, whatever it's like, so that you remember when you see them the next time, yeah, yeah. When you realized, okay, I'm placing a lot of my self worth on numbers or job performance. Is that what drove you to make that shift to more sort of community driven organizations? Or tell us a little bit more about that? Yeah, I mean, the the blunt answer is, my therapist one day was like, you can keep paying me to talk about this every two weeks, or you can just do something about it. Like you can just quit, like I was starting to feel the misalignment. And I'm a big believer that abundance follows alignment, and that doesn't always look like how you think it does. Like I'm not making more money, but I'm more aligned. I'm more fulfilled. I i value rest and recovery as productivity. Now I was able to exit a company take a moment of pause, and then when I re entered the workforce, I did so not from a scarcity perspective, not from a place of burnout. But with boundaries, that I'm a way healthier employee, and as a result, like my company gets the benefit of it, but so do I. And so I think for me, it was, I was burnt out. I was really tying too much of my worthiness from achievement, my identity was just really put in unhealthy places. And from a personal perspective, I mean, I'll share this like, I'm 36 I'm not married, I don't have kids, and I felt like my friends were beating me in the family area. So the further that they were in family, the further I needed to be in my career to be relevant. And I mean, I remember literally saying to someone like, you have two kids, like, I have two mortgages, like, I had to do this to have relevancy, and that is so just harsh to ourselves, and I was really inauthentic, like I was not living in alignment, like, not that I don't want to be like a badass, but like I was not operating at a place that those were my goals. It was to be likeness, and my motivation was to impress other people. And so the second I gave myself permission, right? And I literally, kind of had a fluke moment of I had told myself right that morning. I was like, Okay, God, make it obvious if I'm supposed to quit my job. And this is a true story. I've been here 11 years at this company. They were not laying off, praise God, they were not doing reorgs or anything like that. I talked to my same boss, who I've worked for for 11 years, but that morning I was like, Okay, God, like, make it obvious how I'm supposed to quit. I get on my one on one with Him virtually, and he's like, I just like, had this gut feeling this morning that we should move you to a different role at the company. And I said, Why? Why do you say this? And he was like, I literally don't know. I was just brushing my teeth. And it was like, I'm your one on one with Heather. You should explore different opportunities. And I said, let me show you what I wrote down today. Make it obvious if I'm supposed to quit. And I said, so I do. I quit. And he was like, no, no, no. I said internal. And I said, correct, I quit. And so literally, I'm people are like, Did you rage quit? And I'm like, No, there was no rage and there was no ill will. It was truly we both felt this. He we just weren't putting them in the same box. And so that's the other thing. Like, I think there's sometimes this beautiful exit that we can have where he was championing me, because he was like, wow, look at how much you've grown. You're right. Your alignment had shifted. And I, just as a person, was shifting. It was a big part of it, again, right? Like, I knew that I was numbing with alcohol and not to, like, really go down this rabbit hole. It's just hard, like, especially here in Austin, I'm Social, I'm single, so everything's like, let's grab a drink. Oh, there's wine at the networking events. Oh, you're in sales, you're taking your customers out. And I remember really feeling like I cannot change this about my personal life without changing some of my professional habits. And I think I was also just sitting at that tension too, and I just at this crux of, we got to get an alignment. And so then I really did. I spent six months really intentionally getting aligned, like, who is Heather? Who are my core values? How do I want to feel at work, which is such like a woo, woo thought, but like we should feel a certain way at work, like we assign purpose to how work feels. And when I really started looking at it, was like, What are my favorite parts about my job? What is my core values? It was all community and relationships. And the second I put that out there, like, I got it back tenfold, yeah, yeah, that's incredible, yeah. And like, let's talk about Austin women in technology, right? Yeah, so what? So how did you get involved in that organization you were leading? I don't even know how many volunteers. 700 seems like a huge organization. I've been a part of it as well. So what? How did you get involved with them? And then separately, like, that's a whole other type of leadership, right? Because totally, that's a community that's not financially motivated. They're there, you know, for other reasons. And it's like, how, how did you get involved with them, and how did you kind of keep that momentum moving? Yeah, so when I moved to Austin in 2017 I didn't know anyone, which is crazy to think, like Dallas to Austin, not that far, but back in 2017 like there was not a lot of blend between the two. And this is really before I would say most people were moving to Austin. So when I moved here, I didn't know anyone. I was at a tech company. I had a whole new set of clients. And I said, Where can I go to learn about the city, learn about the tech ecosystem? And I'm just not a reinvent the wheel person, right? So I said I'm going to go to this event. Found it on meetup.com, so again, like Google, the places and the things near you, and community calendars and stuff like that. So I went to an event, and I walked in, there was about 30 women there, and I'll be I'll be frank, it was like. Like 30 middle aged white women who worked at Dell and the city of Austin. And I was like, yeah. I was like, this does not reflect the ecosystem of what being a woman in tech is in Austin. And they said, congrats, you're our new membership director. And so I did, I stepped into a volunteer role to really assess their membership, and what would it take to to attract members like myself? And that's essentially what I did. So while I was learning the system, I essentially just invited people into that with me, and then yes, so I was membership director of the organization that had probably been around for about 15 years already, but it was small. It's probably 100 it was probably 100 people, and yeah, now they're about 700 members. And as the tech world has evolved, the the membership has evolved in a great way, right? Like there's different industries, there are different ages, it's more diverse. It's really this beautiful blend of this, like one stop shop for that. But I really got involved by volunteering. So I always tell people to again, it doesn't always start with you receiving. It might be me giving back first. I mean, I've gotten way more from Austin women in tech than like I've given in the sense of like community and friendships and jobs and confidence and speaking engagements, and again, leading me toward alignment. But volunteering is such a beautiful way to learn different perspectives, meet different people, practice a skill set that you probably don't get to use in your job, a little bit like, like your golf, for example, right? Like we should play. And I was sort of like, what are that's that I can try on, where I'm less afraid to mess up, and that's in a volunteer capacity. So I started volunteering, and really that turned into such a beautiful journey. I started as the president in 2020 so then I was president, like coming out of the pandemic in this virtual shift and at a big growth period. But yes, motivating people who are not compensated is a wild journey, and it's awesome, because you have to be so clear and connected to the mission. And that was a really great way to be like, Okay, do we believe this mission? Are we aligned with this mission? And again, when I've reflected on that, because that was also the crux of it, right? So I'd rolled off as my presidency in the fall of 2023 and when I rolled off of that to just being an advisor, it exposed how much of my life I was happy because of us women in tech. But it really that's what exposed how unaligned I was in my professional job. Like AWT, awesome women in tech was really getting my superpower, and that was where I was also, like, pulling energy from. And then when I just had my day job left, that's when I was like, Oh, wow, I don't feel overly aligned here anymore. Yeah. So I also think, like, in a great way, like volunteering and organizations really pull out this, like, different person that you don't get to wear in these hats at your company. So yeah, I definitely say, like, don't just go to networking groups. Like, get involved. The more you volunteer. Like, people are also like, wow, Heather, you know everyone at AWT. And I'm like, Yeah, I worked the check in desk. I said, hi. I said, Hi, Aaron, to every single person. So I remembered their name, they added me on LinkedIn. That builds my network. Like, sometimes you just gotta, like, put yourself out there, not as just an attendee, but also in a volunteer capacity. Yeah, and I think that ties to the whole idea of, like, okay, because people are okay. I don't have the authority, but I want to build that influence. I don't have the title, I don't have, you know, and so you know, with your incredible background of this, like, mix of, like, shifting and pivoting and volunteerism and everything else advocacy and community building. Like, what do you say to those people? Like, what tactics did you use for like, you want to create buy in and momentum? Like, whether or not it's in their professional job or within a volunteer organization, but they're like, I don't have the title. Like, how do I build influence without the authority behind me? What do you say to that? Yeah, I think we're in a really beautiful place, especially just in the marketplace, where company, name and title is weighing less Right. Like, because people are measuring success differently these days it is not, oh, I worked there for 40 years until I got my pension. Well, like none of us are getting pensions. So like, I think a little bit of the like, the things that were monetized, like the monetarily motivating people, has shifted. So now influence, right? Comes from different areas. And I also think, like, I just tell people, like, shoot your shot, like, step into the role before you have the title. Like, that's what follows it. But I think putting less pressure on getting that specific title is often what leads to the relatability, right? Like, again, like lead. Thing before you have that title, is how you're going to become the leader. For me, like I had so much imposter syndrome stepping into the president of Austin women attack. I was younger than all the board. I was the least technical, so I was like, wow, I don't even fit the title of this, but it was like, but that was a perfect way to be like, what are our core values? What is our vision? What is our why, and then that's what motivates people and buys them in. Is, really, I would rather have a aligned bottom of the totem pole person than a misaligned sea level person, right? I mean, I think that's a little bit of it, but I always tell people to, like, don't if that's not your strength, like, don't try to force yourself into that either. Like, I have never met a mic I didn't love Right? Like, love the mic, like journalist to stage to being here on the podcast with you. But I also know, like, it's not always the loudest person in the room. That's the influence. So I also think just because maybe you're quiet or you're an introvert or you don't love the center stage doesn't mean you're not having influence, like people are probably watching you, but your influence just might look a little differently. But I often think people like defer to the person in the tone off because they're loud with each other, but that's just not the case, and I think being virtual has also changed that, because people are able to get time with different executives, from a zoom perspective that maybe you wouldn't have marched into their office. So I also think like shooting your shot looks a little different. So I don't know if I answered that question, but went down there. No, you did, but, and I love it too, because when you said, oh, like, you may have influence, and it looks different than, you know, what others influence would be, right? And so you may be just going to your day to day and think, like, oh, I need to, you know, like, really have this influence. And, you know, I don't have the title, whatever someone is looking at you, thinking, Whoa, look at her. Look at what she's doing, right? Just by showing up, just by like, volunteering or getting involved in something new, or, like, trying a new skill, or whatever, there's always going to be someone that's like, newer, or you know that you are, you know, and so that they're going to be like, Whoa. Like, look what she's doing, look what she's trying, look what she said, and you have zero idea, you know that you totally Yeah, and sometimes you get to see the fruit from it. Like, I always tell people, like, actually, this was just one of my like, filler questions to someone at a networking event, actually. And I said, who is someone that you need to circle back and tell them that they've impacted you, that maybe you haven't, because we often also don't like thank those people. But how good does it feel if someone is like, Hey, thank you for giving me that speaking opportunity that gave me the confidence now to host my own podcast, or thank you for the opportunity to lead that project that showed me that I should turn my side hustle into full spend, into a main hustle, or whatever it might be. And I think often we don't go back and thank that person too. And so I've been in this season right, like, Thanksgiving moment of just like, Who do I need to go back? And also, thank you for the opportunity to influence and lead before I even knew I was ready. Yeah, 100% and it's like, when you're like, kind of making these changes. Do you have, I always, I love the word playbook. I don't know why. Yeah, let's use it. Do you have, like, how do you know when to move on, because you've kind of shifted your industries and types and that sort of a thing. So how do you know when to move on, and how do you kind of, like, reposition those skills for the next thing? Yeah, okay, I love that question, because I've really been marinating on that, that I'm an Enneagram three, right? So I'm an achiever with a wing two of helper, so I'm the enchanter. So it's very achieve, achieve, achieve. And so I've often thought like, oh, you move on when you accomplish your goal, right? Or like, I mean, think about how we were raised. Like, we're in school from zero to 22 most of us in a traditional like, four year college path. There's really clear cut times when to move on, and then they throw us into the marketplace, and no one really tells you when it's time to go. And I think I had to navigate that the hard way, right? Like giving myself permission slip, like something my therapist actually said to me one day was she was like, give yourself permission a permission slip before you need a hospital note. Like before you're so reactively burnt out, resentful, bitter that over something like give yourself permission to exit. But no one really showed us that or taught us that, and especially like older generations, like measuring success from loyalty at a company. But I would say one like, especially for the women, like, women's intuition is real. Like, trust your gut. Like, I literally was like, Okay, make it obvious and I'm supposed to leave. I could have just thought that that one on one was like. Like, Oh, wow, it's time for me to get a new role. Or I had a trust in my gut that I literally asked for a sign was given it, and then don't What do I do with that? So I think definitely like listening to your body, trusting your gut, for sure, but also, just as someone who loved efficiency, right? Efficiency will never outweigh obedience. Yeah. And I think really, like, like, if we're too busy being efficient, and we're too busy, like, trying to control, like, we stop just creating, and we stop just, like, being obedient to what we're supposed to do next, and then you might actually miss the opportunity to step into the more aligned thing. So, yeah, absolutely, yeah. And so like, when you as a high achiever, and by the way, I'm pretty sure I'm the same, Enneagram, I need to go check, as you're saying, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I'm the same too, but I will check it. You've you kind of thrown yourself in high achievement cultures, and not because I'm going to be in high achievement cultures. That's just kind of who you are, right? So you gravitate to them exactly. So like, what do you and this will wrap up, I swear, although I could talk to you forever, but what like boundaries or habits to have you put into place that work for yourself? It kind of like it keeps your ambition sustainable, quite honestly. Yeah, no, I boundaries has really been where I'm in the thick of it, I would say, Right? And I both think, both personally and professionally, I started doing especially when I stopped drinking, right? Like, alcohol was this beautiful way to numb things, but I was, like, kind of always out of five, like, you don't sit in the highs as deep. And even so, the lows is deep when you're just like, kind of having a drink sort of thing. And again, like everyone's on their own journey with alcohol. But for me, when I stopped drinking, my lack of boundaries was really exposed. Of just who had access to me, I would hear the word no, and that would be a creative way to figure out how I could do it all. Oh, can you be at this? No, but I can hire someone to be at it, or, Oh, I can dial in on Zoom, or whatever. Like, I was always going to get savvy. And I feel like when my nervous system was allowed to slow down, just from, like, also physically slowing down, stopping numbing and, like, doing an audit, really, of my life, like I truly went through all interactions, if I would leave, I'd be like, how did I feel around that person? Because from my lens, mine was more of, did I need a drink around that person? And if the answer was yes, that's a boundary that needs to go up. So I had this very like, obvious thing that was like, starting to show like, Oh, you were a little icky around that person or that event. Felt like you wanted to drink your way through it, like that was a good reminder of it. So like, one again, listening to your body for that. But two, like sticking to those boundaries, like you can't put up a boundary in hopes of that other personal change, like the boundaries to protect you, and if someone violates the boundary, there has to be consequences. So I also think really sticking to the consequences. I mean, they suck and they suck for me and they suck for that person, especially someone who's, like, truly, biggest motivator in life is to be liked. Like, that's so hard for me, but really just having those boundaries with certain people, with certain activities, with my calendar, like I've blocked things, like, I now run the track, or I do travel ons, and I'll put my training calendar in there. I'll put my therapy in my calendar. I don't care that that's public. We're no longer in this like, out busy each other way, right? I feel like 10 years ago, used to be like, Oh my gosh, how are you I'm so busy. Oh my gosh. I'm so busy too. Now I feel like it's like, with AI, we're like, oh yeah, I only work 30 hours a week. Isn't that great? Like, we're proud of, like, efficiency in that sense. So I think, like, really looking at boundaries as like a gift to yourself, so that every single thing you can do can be more aligned and intentional. But it's by having them. It's fine putting up consequences. It's by sticking to them, like, not canceling on myself and the boundaries that I said I was going to have, and, yeah, figuring out what you're aligned to. Like, I actually did this workbook essentially, of really just like, What are my core values? What are my core goals, and if things don't align with them, like they don't have a place right now, yeah, and I love the point that you made of, like, consider how you feel, because so many times we're in these situations and we'll leave an event or whatever, and we're like, Oh my gosh. Like, how did I come across? Or what did they think of me? Or, like, did I say was that joke funny? Or, like, you know, that kind of a thing, rather than, how did I feel? And I don't think we do that enough, if ever, you know, like, how did I feel about that event? How did I feel about the people I was around? How did I feel, you know, that sort of a thing. Because that tells you everything that you need to know, totally. And I just started asking. Asking that of events, and then the events that I throw, I ask other people also, how did you feel at my event? Because if I'm going to be throwing events or being a community builder, I also want it to be life giving for people. And so that kind of brings me to so like the the two roles that I'm in right now, I'm the Chief growth officer for a startup called switchboard, which essentially is a virtual volunteering platform. And this is something that I learned from the pandemic. But like, How can a graphic designer in Austin use their skills to empower a nonprofit in Nepal that helps women who have been trafficked or something like that, right? Like, how can your skills be used? And the second platform is called what she said, and we essentially drive revenue from referrals, right? So people often will text me and be like, Heather, who's your CPA or your lawyer, or what was that podcast, or what's your local coffee shop? And they live in your text message, within your DMS, and then when you're often looking for them, you can't find them. So we built an app called referral rfrl, where you can go on and essentially search for what you're looking for, and it routes you to a woman owned business, and it's the person who doesn't have the marketing budget and the SEO dollars, but the true community and frequent users and the referrals. How can we put them at the front of it? And so it was really great when I did my essentially, like 2023 audit on my life, and I wrote down for 2024 it was like, I want to be community giving. I want to point people from a volunteer perspective, to change their lives, and I want to empower women owned businesses. So here I am at South By. I meet both of the founders of these, they tell me their vision, and they're like, are you in the market? And I'm like, I am, and this is what I want to do. And here's how I align with both of those things. Like, what's a better pitch for job seekers than literally, like, this is exactly what I want to do. Like, I wanted to create this space. And so I think just like, again, that was a boundary that I wanted to have So, long story short, like knowing who you are, knowing your own story, is the only way you're gonna be able to tell other people that. But when you invite community into it, and you invite intentionality into it, like that's the magic, yeah, 100% and both of those organizations are so important, and I'm gonna include links to those in the show notes so people can learn more, especially what she said, It's just incredible. I love that you're, you're spearheading those. It's, it's really amazing work. So thank you for being, you know, involved in those. If people want to connect with you online, or should they best do? So yeah, definitely add me on LinkedIn. I'll accept you message me. Let's chat Heather Trump Feller, and I know that'll be in the show notes there too, and I think my email is under my contact information, so would love to chat. Perfect. And then I ask one fun question. Some people say it's mean. I think it's fun. We are big music heads over here. So I always ask if you could listen to one music artist for the rest of your life. Who would it be? Trans atlanticism album by Death Cab for Cutie is the best album. I mean, I'll be honest, like, I'm a Swifty, so I have loved the life of the show girl lately, and just truly, like, I feel like Taylor Swift getting her Master's back has been this, yeah, the playbook for women to like, own what they're creating, and it's been so inspiring. And I'm an 89 baby, so always a Swifty. But yeah, trans atlanticism by death cat for Cutie, yeah, no. Skips, no. Skips, no, no, not all. I'm a huge death cap for Katie fan. So I think I've seen them live, like, every city that I've lived in. I'm like, let's go. But, and I actually just saw like, side note when Postal Service came through Austin. Oh, I was there. I was there too. It was, that was incredible, yeah, like, when they played the whole album, yeah, green, yeah. Give up. Is Yes, I have it on my vinyl. Clark Gable is one of my favorite songs of all time. I mean, I like, wept, yes, it was so good. We're getting, I was like, we're getting an entire death cap album and postal service. What is happening, right? I was like, yeah, it was amazing. It was so good. So yay, I'll see. I knew I liked you. That's awesome. You're the first person who said death calves. I get really excited. So awesome. Okay, well, Heather, thank you so much. We will be hanging out in person. I just decided this is happening. But thank you for taking the time to chat. Super appreciate it. Yes, talk to you soon. All right, thanks.