Hey, welcome everybody to the latest episode of clover. This week, we have Kamal Patel joining us. I am so excited to speak to you. You're before we started recording, I told her I was like, You're doing so many incredible, fun things. I can't wait to hear more about can't wait to hear more about it. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Thank you, Aaron, so much. I'm really excited to speak today and share my story incredible. And so we're both in Austin, which is which is really fun. And I always joke with my Austin guests, I'm like, we should actually see each other in person. Yes. Yeah. So I always begin every episode with just, like, backstory, you know, my mom always says, like, everybody has a story, you know? And I think that's what resonates with most people. That's what they want to hear, you know, so and some people are just like, nobody cares. Everybody cares, you know, it's very inspiring to others. What you may see is not interesting. Others are like, Wow, incredible that you did that. So if you wouldn't mind just kind of going back and to the start of your career and kind of walking us from like, how you got to where you are today. And I always encourage people to kind of weave in what was happening personally as well as professionally, because I feel like the two are intertwined, you know. So, yeah, so if you wouldn't mind kind of giving us your quote, unquote origin story, that'd be great. All right, so como origin story. So I spent about two decades in large tech companies. So my career really started in large tech. I came to United States about, yeah, about two decades ago, and did my Master's in comm science, kind of jumped into into large tech, and, like, never looked back. And as part of that, I actually even had a chance to kind of go around the world. Lived in lot of different places, different countries. So really grateful for all the experiences I collected over over time, but at the same time, it was also the jewelry, which I don't think a lot of people know about this, but jewelry was nothing that I just stumbled into or anything. It's actually something that I grew it was part of my life. My family's into jewelry business. So So growing up, I saw this all around me. I saw how my family met family would work, how the business was, how operations work, how customers engage into, you know, like the customer side of it, and the emotion that comes with when you're building your fine jewelry for your special moments. So I kind of saw all of this, you know, and it was like about few years ago, when I was like, Hey, I I see it, but I still see that. It is so fragmented that industry like which I left behind, say, 20 years ago, is still where it was super manual, super fragmented. So while so think about this, right? I really like even simple thing, like, hey, I want to, like a customer walks in, or, let's say you or I want to make some jewelry, and we walk into a store today, like, hey, I want to, I want to make this ring, or I have this idea about making this necklace, because I live in Austin, I want some or something Austin inspired. And it just started an idea, and then it takes a lot of days and weeks before, like, the ideas get shared, it's cashed, it's priced, and a lot of so the excitement that you went into the store with within the three weeks. Now, it's like, okay, a lot is happening, but I don't know. Maybe I moved on. I've found something else or, you know, so, so Lord of that opportunity kind of gets lost and, and that's what I saw and, and so that was one thing. So that's something that pulled me into this. The other thing that was happening around the same time Erin was I got really good at what I was doing in large tech, I'll be very honest. And if you think of large tech, it is lot of it is about scaling. It is about optimizing. It is about improving systems that are already working well. So I get got to the point where, like, Hey, I'm really good at what I'm doing, but right now I'm ready to kind of fix something or reinvent something that actually does not work. And that's where I was like, Hey, I was just looking at back at my my history, which was like, jewelry, and the background like, Oh, my God, it's really stuck where it was. So that is the biggest opportunity I can go and fix. So couple years ago, actually, I jumped into starting a mod. So I went on a mission to say, Hey, I'm going to start a. Modern jewelry brand, and that's where ethic carrot was born. Which was, which had three, three stool, double legs, or two legs to the stool, so to speak, which is, it's going to have modern sustainable materials, like recycled gold. It's have lab grown diamonds. It's going to be all very modern, variable jewelry. Second thing was technology and experience, which is, I'm going to bring in AI and augmented reality, and all the technology things that I knew which would change the way people will buy experience. So it's not only modern jewelry, but the way consumer with bite will also change. So those were like the two fundamentally big things I wanted to bring in, and the third, third leg being still maintain the heritage and the craftsmanship like the human because, because jewelry without humans making it and the artistry is kind of soulless. So for me, those were, like the three fundamental things, and I started building it, and then I realized, oh my god, the whole the technology part is not just my problem. It is actually an industry wide problem, and this needs to become not just a, b to c. I'm solving it for my ethical customers, but I could pretend I could solve it the opportunities for the industry wide, and that's where, that's where my most recent company, diameter was born, to solve this for the industry, and bring this industry wide shift, so to speak. So long story short, yes, I started in a big tech learned all about systems and system mindset, and kind of concluded back into, hey, I'm bringing this all together like a capstone project, where technology, system scalability and all of that is kind of coming into the into this new product and the new company does dialog. I love how your big tech, it was almost like a precursor, right to what you're you were meant to do, it seems like, because then I imagine you draw on that experience so much. And probably that was part of what helped you identify that, oh, there is this issue industry wide, you know, that I can tackle rather than just doing this one thing, you know, kind of drawing upon that experience, yeah. And so what? First of all, because there's people who are listening, who are like, I would love to leave corporate, you know, and do my own thing, that sort of a thing, and are, like, you know, kind of nervous to do so. So what helps you make that jump? You know, before you did that, you know, that's it's a big deal. It is a big change. It's a big go. And it doesn't happen overnight, trust me. Aaron, it wasn't like Monday. I just woke up and woke up and like, Hey, I'm I'm done. Thank you very much. Never seeing you again. Oh no, it wasn't that. It's something that you brew and you prepare for that day, at least. That's That's what worked for me, that, and I think that's what gives you the confidence to jump into the into this new venture. Because, make no mistake, it is no easy, right? You will, you will, every day you wake up and you're like, Oh, my God, can I I mean, why did I do this? You know, there are good days and bad days, right? Like, why did I do this? And, I mean, that Job was okay. Maybe there were good days and bad days, but hey, it paid me. Like, I mean, like, the paychecks kept coming, and everything's all good. So make no mistake, yes, when you jump into this be you have to be very emotionally strong. You need to have your why, extremely clear on why you want to do this. And if possible, make sure you have and I actually told and especially if there are people who are like, mid career, make sure you have enough savings where you are not like, hey, my God, I'm doing this now. I'm leaving my job and doing this because I'm passionate about this. But if you cannot pay your if you cannot do you cannot have your basic lifestyle. Guess what? You're going to like, stop your passion. The passion doesn't come that day and you're going to run back to like a job. So I would say, make sure you are you have that figured out, right? Whether it is family support, you have investments, you have your own enough savings and and if you still want to take a try, give yourself budget and time to say, hey, you know what? This is really well worth the idea. I'm going to give myself a year. I'm going to give myself three years. Here is the money I'm setting aside to work on it. That way you are working on your idea and chasing that without any distraction from, oh, my god. I don't know how to serve dinner tonight, so I think that's the biggest thing. I'll tell anybody. But trust me, once that is figured out, it is so much fun driving your passion because now you're just like, hey, I'm solving the next issue and that I can and finding the next opportunity versus chasing, I guess, the basics for your lifestyle, yeah, so it's more of, like, fulfillment, right on how you're using your time, you know, building something that means something to you. And so were there when you decided to build these companies, were you met with any resistance? You know, did you kind of have to, like, you know, if you did get questioned, you know, by others did. Were there times when you had to be like, no, no, I trusted myself. I'm betting on me. You know, when I'm when I'm doing this? Like, can you talk a little bit about that? That's so funny. You asked that. Yeah, all the time, and all the time, honestly, for such a new thing, I think there was I was going at work, I was trying to pitch this thing to an industry, or people in the industry, when I myself, didn't have the right language for it, because I had that intuition, I had the the idea of how I will solve it, but I didn't. I may not even right. So it was that early on, and you're like, Oh my God, this never going to happen. Jewelry has been fine jewelry people have been wearing for 1000s of years, right? So that industry is that old, so and and if you go to Julia today, the people and processes and workflows haven't changed for decades. They're like, it's working. I'm making millions. I have high margin. We are all busy, but, but it works for us, right? So, so I don't know what you're talking about, either. Why? Why do we need to change so? So, yes, that those were all kinds of resistance that I faced, and I continue to face, but it also helped me as I'm having these conversations, and then over time, you figure out sure everybody is there is always something that's not working for that right, and then picking up and kind of having a new year for that, and starting to talk their language, their customers language, then it starts to resonate. And for me, for Dianna, it was really about, oh, my God, I have so much demand for custom jewelry. My margins are so high. So demand is high. My job, my margins are high. The problem is my conversion rate is low because my time is too long, and that's what we tap into. I'm like, That's it. That's what we are going to solve. That's what our product solves. And now, now I'm talking your language and and then it just, it just changed for us. And then people were just a lot more receptive. And how did you learn the messaging like, how did you figure that out? And you're like, Okay, I need to speak their language and hit on, you know, specific messaging pain points. Maybe that resonates with them. How did you discover that there's no shortcut errand to that you have to keep on, keep on talking to. I mean, we've, I've spoken to hundreds of customers, like, lots of elbow and grease. It's gone into getting that. I feel like there is no other shortcut. That's how you get your insight. That's where you start speaking their language, and especially like somebody like me, or right like, who's kind of changed the industry? Sure, I grew up there, but that's not where I ever worked. So my language and my thinking is very different, or was very different at least few years ago. So only day for me to learn was to kind of be in the middle and start swimming in the in the messy waters, was that another kind of obstacle, like you came from tech, you did have a background through family and jewelry, but did you have something to prove? You know, like you weren't traditionally, you were your career wasn't based in jewelry. And so like, how did you kind of cross that bridge? It's very traditional industry, as you've said, you know, so kind of, how did you cross that, that bridge, coming from a tech background, talking to these people? Yeah, I think for me, it was, I think, more than proving it was about, I wanted to be helpful and impactful. I think, I think that was the biggest obstacle. So it wasn't like, Hey, I'm going to prove you wrong, or there are better ways to do things. It was really about, hey, if I can really make them understand that they are missing. Been a huge opportunity. They are missing out on sales and conversions and efficiency, and if I can make them see it very clearly, then that will be, that will be job well done on my part. So that is, that was, that has been my mindset. I think that is the foundation of how we message and approach customers. And I think that was the biggest obstacle I had to kind of cover, like, first 10 customers, like, they don't even open the doors. They're like, Oh, we don't do we don't do tech, we don't do AI and all of that. And we're like, hold on, like, it's nothing to do with AI is just a tool. It's like using a pen to write a thing. It has nothing to do with this. I mean, technology. There's so many things so so kind of just getting over that hump to and the the obstacle and to prove to what we wanted to prove was really, hey, we are going to we can be helpful to you. We can help you increase your sales. And if you can do that, we have done our job well. So I guess that's that was a big thing they wanted to solve, yeah, and so it's coming alongside them, you know, like, you know, rather than at them. So speaking of AI, how, how do you leverage it, you know, with what you do like what? How does it kind of, do you use it? You said, use it as a tool. Is it more of like something you use, like it within a workflow? Or, how do you, how do you leverage that technology? Two parts to that right. One is obviously for operational, just for our running the business, it's we use it for pretty much everything. And I, I highly encourage, right, like for for anybody trying to start small. I think this is such an amazing time that we are in that with such a low cost, with such amazing and high performing tools, you can get so much done with your tools and agents. And so if you build, like your shadow team with AI, I mean, you can get so much done. So a lot of those stuff we do to get our work stuff done, but then even for our product itself, we use a lot of AI. So obviously our tech stack, we use AI as well. So both operationally and at product level, yeah, it's so smart and you know, like building out those agents as kind of like employees, like building your team, you know, via AI, yeah, yeah. And then when? But when you started AI wasn't as widespread as it is now. And so when you when you did kind of go out on this, these ventures, you didn't have everything figured out, and you said, take one step in front of the other. How did you another thing we talked about on this podcast is, like accepting help and support, and, you know, and all of that. And so what is your view on that? And how did you kind of leverage support and help and resources in order to, kind of, like, get these going so see you're right. So November 2023 is when Sam Altman talked about open AI publicly, and it kind of just took off from there, right? So, and as he got it was I left my I left my nine to five job in May of 2024, and so it was just right around that time. And so So, I mean, from day one for ethic added, we started building the AI tool for ethic added, like just the internal ethical tool for my ethic added customers. So I knew coming from tech that hey, I mean, there is no other, there is no option. I mean, I just don't know how to think otherwise, like it has to be a tech first product, tech first company. So that was that, but, but to your question, for sure, tools were early, of course, in like two years, oh, my god, the performance and the outputs are so much more advanced than and back in 2024 so that said, How did I take help? So I knew that for running a company, I was going to need so many resources because, and there was no ways I was going to do it myself, and I knew that I did have funds to kind of hire every I mean, I cannot, I cannot hire a team. So I think the the idea is to kind of just contract like, you know, your strengths, where you think you can do and what you want to work on, and what you want to spend your time on. Second thing is things you don't know Sure, you can learn and get things done, and you can keep your cost low, but it's also going to take a lot of time, and initially you want to really spend your time when you're just starting a company. You want to spend your time testing your product, getting your customer traction, and all of that. So it's worth an investment. Hire an expert, hire your you know, like the contractors or the experts in the industry, friends, advisors. I mean, be shameless and kind of get help right, and your your focus as a founder should be all about customer and market and product fit, because until you've proven that, guess what? For all, you know, six months after you've left the job, you may want to go back, because, hey, you're a great item, but it's not really, you know, it was just your great idea. Nobody else really gets it. And that's okay. That's okay. So, but, but in order to do that, I think it's well worth an investment to hire the experts and get help that you do, you need to scale, yeah, yeah, that's great. And it's, it's something we do touch on here, because there's so, there's so many people who still are like, No, I need to just forge ahead and do it on my own. And, you know, and not, and not accept help, you know, and it's just so important. It's like, it takes a village, I think, feel like, for everything. And so how do you, how do you kind of manage everything, as a founder, I mean, that's that's a lot. It takes up a lot of your time. It takes a lot of your headspace, you know, and so, but you have a personal life, you have other things going on, and so what do you do to kind of help with that? I don't want to use the word balance, because there's no such thing, but, you know, but how do you kind of weigh everything in your in your your life, and is there anything that you do, like a practice or something that helps kind of with your your wellness as well? Yeah, super important, because the mental health is so important because there are so many bad days and versus good days initially, and you need that, that balance, actually internal balance, to kind of like, hey, yes, I got a bad day, but next day you it's a fresh day, right? We go, go for it. So super important for me, it's actually my family, my family and friends, I think they they help me. I have young kids and middle schoolers, so I we spend a lot of time with their activities and sports and everything they need and and that's my time to like, hey. That gives me that relief. It gives me that fulfillment, that at the end of the day, this is where I come home to so for me, super important that whatever happens, I have my shutdown time and quality time with my family. Beyond that, I try to make sure there is enough the hell like hikes and walks and kind of catching up with friends, because you need to need that break. You don't want to keep working 18 hours a day, but, but honestly, it's just lot more efficient when you actually deliberately take breaks and kind of let your thoughts just sit in and rest and kind of rejuvenate. So I definitely do prioritize that over over everything else. And I want to say, like, those are like, that's the main thing. And let's see what else I do for mental health. I think I would say that's the main thing. Friends and family at this point, yeah, spending time with the people you care about. For sure, are your friends or family involved in what you're building, or is it pretty separate? They are. Many of them are like my, they become like my, like, board of advisors, if you may, write like the Friends of advisors, like, that's a word, right? Like, hey, like, oh my god, I'm so stuck. Like, I just need to, like, kind of speak it out. And they are there for me, whether they understand it, not to understand it, like, they are there to like, Hey, it's okay. Or this makes sense, doesn't make sense. So I definitely have set of friends and family members that I can I lean on for, for when I have a positive moment or anything, so, yeah, yeah, but yes, when I'm honestly, when it's a family time, like I do try to separate it, not make it about just work, work, work all the time, but when I need them, I can just pick up the phone and talk. Okay, great. And then, have you found outlets with other founders, like as a founder, sometimes it can be it can feel pretty siloed. So have you found an outlet for that as well? Yes, yes. And I would say, like, I think Austin has such a great community of both female founders and general founder. Communities is growing. So definitely that's helping also some of my MBA friends, like the friends I went to school with, like, who have other companies, or they are like leaders in other companies. I think they are like a great set of friends as well to kind of catch a catch up and talk about things. But it's super important, Aaron, to your point, like otherwise it is so easy to kind of. Be in your own echo chamber. You are. You just kind of, it's very easy to, like, kind of drown into all that. And it's really important to kind of stay pop your head up and see the what's happening around the world as well. Yeah, because then you don't feel as though you're just on your own, you know, doing this by yourself, you have, like, another kind of a network of folks who are also building, you know, and founding their own companies and understand, you know what, what you're facing. So I'm curious, when you look back at your, you know, your big tech career, what we're doing now, how has your view of leadership changed? Or has it, you know, like from, you know, what you kind of saw leadership being in big tech and then now, founding your own company and being a leader in a different way? Is there, you know, as your definition of leadership shifted, or, you know, what have you seen there? Yeah, it's that's a with the big tech, one of the big or the most important factor as a leader was all about, can you bring the scale? Can you bring the efficiency, and can you sustain? I felt like the leadership outcomes kind of hinged on these three things. I think for startup is slightly different. For startup, it is like, how are you able to see the opportunity? Are you able to take that opportunity from zero to one? Right? Like, are you able to scale that? And then the and the third thing was really like, not of that building foundational blocks, such as your messaging, your how you acquiring your first few customers? How are you hiring your first few team members and building a solid foundation that way you can then scale and accelerate. So I saw those two like, those were like super, very different skills. And honestly, I did struggle initially, because I came from a big tech and I thought from the day when I had to build a very scalable future proof systems. And then it took me a few months, a while to understand that it's really not about spending time and money on building those on day one, it was all about really getting your product market fit so talking to the actual customers, what they really need was lot more important in the initial days as a founder, and then translating that into building something meaningful. So I think, I think those are, like, the two big changes, I would say, from big tech to a founder. Yeah, because in big tech, so if you're, like, if you're, you know, working for a larger company, you have that support kind of built in, right? There's teams that take care of x, y and z. So you're like, Okay, this is my part of the puzzle. And now it goes through this team, or now, you know, it goes here, and then, as a founder, it's like, oh, just me. I am every I'm doing every function exactly. So you're spot on. Like, there were days of like, oh my god, there's nobody I can push out my work, like, my work to where is, where is my team? Like that used to follow me. So now that's why I'm like, I'm in love with AI, because now I have a shadow AI team, right? AI agents who are working for weeks. I'm like, I'm so happy right now. What would you say to people who who are going to start their own, you know, company we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, prepping before you're, you know, you're leaving your steady paycheck. Are there any ahas or gotchas? You know that you're like, oh, wasn't expecting that. Or, you know that you can kind of mention to people that they might experience and when they're going out on their own, yeah, yeah. I think that's a that's a good question. So I think the biggest thing I'll say, or the gotcha dispar for me, was, I keep going back to this example, and because maybe I think I was burned so bad early on that I want to kind of reinforce that so early on, like you feel at least I felt that, hey, I had to, like, spend a lot on the disproportionate spend on, say, marketing, without being very clear about who is your without having your product market fit. And I think it is very easy to do that like especially if you've worked, let's say if you've worked even like 1015, 20 years, like you, you kind of come from, come from a mindset of maybe you. Have a little bit of cushion in your savings. You come from a mindset that, hey, the other team members have take have thought through this, right? Like, or like, hey, my marketing team knows what they are doing, or my product team knows what they are doing. But here, because you are everything, and you have to be good at everything, that may or may not be true. So if you start focusing on the Hey, I'm going to over index on marketing, or I'm going to over index on, say, product development or or one or the other, it's very easy to miss the other things. So so I would say, as of as a new farming CEO, it is super important to kind of be very balanced. But I'll say, like, in the first few months, first six months, don't do anything but focus on your proving your product market fit. And I think that was one of the biggest gotcha. I think I was trying to do too many things, because that's what I was used to. I'm like, Oh my God, I need, like, a perfect system every time. But I don't think that's necessary, and probably even the right thing. So I think that's a lessons learned from ethic added, doing things differently and testing point of much better results with that as well. Yeah, it makes sense. I think you know, to your point, I think many founders skip over product market fit and which it can be catastrophic they're doing, you know, and they go like, Oh, I need a website, oh, I need a logo, oh, I need, you know, branding and, you know, and it's like way before that, you need to even figure out if what you're building is needed or wanted, or how to communicate it to your target audience, and who is your target audience, and all of that groundwork needs to be done. What are you most excited about as you look forward to what you're working on next? Yeah, okay, that's a great question. So let's see I'm most excited about, I mean, I'm very optimistic about what we are building with diameter one we are so much ahead of the curve. I have one of the, I mean, the best, like very, very technology, technologically advanced team, and what we are building is so much ahead of the curve, and they're fixing the right problems, so right technology, and we have a really good product market fit, which is giving me super and we have, we have really good traction in the last two months that we have been kind of started talking about our product to the customer. So we have some very good early traction as well. So very bullish about where we are heading right now, and I'm excited about bringing it to market in a full scale. We haven't really started going to market in a full scale other than, like, just smaller, but we have some plans coming up. We have multiple channels that we are opening, and very excited about that scale that we're going to bring it very cool. I don't suppose you can tell us what you're working on. So I did, right? Like, is that a little bit, a little bit, but, like, how about that? How about you give us a quick background on the two companies you have, because we did cover it a little bit. But let's, let's do that. Yeah and yeah, and then the problems that you're solving that you're excited about, that'd be great. Okay, sounds good. So, as I think briefly mentioned, ethi Carrot is a, so yes, I'm founded. I have two companies right now. One is eti carrot, which is, which is a modern, sustainable fine jewelry company, modern materials AI. LED design platform embedded into it. So it's a new experience for the customers. It's a B to C brand, but we are also opening a B to B channels for customers want jewelers wanting to carry our line. So that's that's ethical, it and Daimler is the B to B SaaS platform for jewelers who are in custom jewelry business. And what we are giving them is an end to end, inspiration to design, to delivery, all in one single workflow which is going to help them increase their custom jewelry business sales, as well as is going to improve their efficiency and how they deliver it. So for example, we are bringing six weeks of that whole process that it takes you walk into the store, you give the design, and you may or may not decide to order with that jeweler could take anywhere from four to six weeks. Today, we are bringing it down to like 30 minutes you walk into the store, you will leave with an order, and if not, at least jeweler is not like going to spend their resources working on that need. So that's what we want to bring. We want to bring jeweler. We are trying. To bring jewelers that efficiency and sales conversion, and we're just doing traction or not, that's great, yeah, and I'm sure you know, explaining it that way, jewelers are like, I would like an increase in conversion and time efficiency. That sounds great. Sign us up. I up. Cool. Where can people find you online? If they want to connect with you, sure I'm very much there on LinkedIn. So find me on LinkedIn. I'm active. Love to chat. Anybody wants to grab coffee, I'm always up for good coffee. Also, we are on Facebook, so you can go to, we're just starting our channels, by the way, so it's we are very new, but please come and follow us on diameter for jewelers, on on YouTube, on Facebook, Instagram and all of that. So yeah, I guess those are like the Annette to get it. Of course, we are on all the channels as well, social media channels. So check out, check out our collections. And we're also working with couple of jewelers, at least in Austin area, where you will start seeing some ethnic added pieces, but that will be coming soon, so I'll share that more, and my LinkedIn and other pages. Okay, yeah, that'd be great. And we can, we'll include your current links in the show notes. And then there was one question that has nothing to do with what we talked about, but I ask everybody, it's just fun, because we love music over here, if you could only listen to one music artist for the rest of your life? Oh, wow. Okay, all right, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna pick an Indian. And I don't know if your audience knows about Indian musicians or not, but I'm a big fan of singer. His name is Arijit Singh, and yes, I could listen to him all day long. But if I have to speak over American my kids are these days into Benson bone, apparently, and I love to speak to a lot of that. So yeah, that's awesome. What do you said in middle school? I have a middle schooler as well, so I get it. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been an incredible discussion, and I know you're busy with all the things. So really appreciate we were able to make this happen. Yeah, Thanks Aaron for the for the chance. And yeah, love chatting with you. Super fun. And next time we should meet in person, it almost feels silly to be on Zoom and it's like we're probably miles away. But yeah, thank you. Bye.