Erin Geiger: 0:10

Welcome everybody to the latest episode of Clover this week. I have Greta Gardner. You guys do not even know how excited I am to have this woman on the podcast. So, Greta, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today, really appreciate it.

Unknown: 0:22

Thank you for having me. I'm excited. I'm looking forward to the conversation with you.

Erin Geiger: 0:27

So, just quick backstory: Greta and I met. I don't even know, like decades ago, 100

Unknown: 0:33

years ago.

Erin Geiger: 0:35

It's like a lifetime when we both lived in Austin, and I just keep following her journey, and everything that you do, Greta, just like floors me. Like the impact that you have, and all the important work that you do, is so incredible. And so when I launched this podcast about women in leadership, I was like, I've got to have my friend Greta on and reconnect, and you know, and talk about all the things. And so many things have happened in our life, but we've had to reschedule this, and you know, and so it's like just grateful and proud of us that we made it happen. Here we are today. But what I ask people to do when I when I first kick off each episode is to kind of walk us through, you know, kind of how you got to be where you are today. You know, I love to hear both the personal and the professional of kind of like your origin story. It's super interesting to everybody, even though we're not interesting to ourselves. So I would love to hear

Unknown: 1:31

it. Yeah. Well, thank first. Thank you for tracking me down and for asking me. I'm so proud of you, and what a privilege it is to be here because my whole career, personal and professional, has been helping other women. So thank you. My origin story is completely haphazard. Best

Erin Geiger: 1:53

ones are. Yeah,

Unknown: 1:55

I mean, I am not supposed to be here, but I am, and I've been very fortunate to have the career that I've had thus far. I actually was in a whole different lane. I was a JD PhD candidate, where I worked full time for Johns Hopkins University with the Center for Social Organization of Schools, where my researcher, principal researcher, was Dr. Robert Slavin, who had a curricula called Roots and Wings, and he basically believed that there is no such thing as at-risk kids, and that teachers just needed more support so that they could teach classroom, and that students shouldn't be pulled out of the classroom. That they just needed aides in the room to support and buffer because there's a stigma whether you're gifted and talented or whether you're considered at risk to be pulled out of the classroom. So he really believed in kind of mainstreaming students, and so what I wanted to do is I went to law school at night because I didn't like to be poor and I didn't want to take a whole bunch of loans out, and I loved what I did. And so I worked full time. I went to school at night, and after the law program, I was going to do my PhD because I wanted to work on legal barriers to education for foster children and housing insecure children, because there's so many things that that they have to overcome paperwork, documentation, etc. And then my dad, who was a judge in Baltimore City for 26 years, he said, "Don't you want to be a law clerk? And I said, "No, I know what you do. Why would I want to, you know, sit and watch what I've seen you do for forever? And he won, and I sat for this amazing judge, Judge David Ross, and he, what the time was hearing domestic merits. That's what we call in Baltimore City, and it was divorce, custody, family law matters, unbundled or part of a divorce, and then protection order hearings, and that was the first time. So this must have been the summer of '94 that I'd ever even heard of protection orders or why there were the whole process ex parte of the final hearing. And between the stories that I heard during the protective order hearings and the stories that I heard in divorce, I was like, "Wait a minute! Women are just kidding. You know, number one, physically harmed, financially harmed, and this is not okay. I come from a pretty matriarchal family, and this was completely-it completely shifted my mindset about oh, I have to be a part of fixing this. That something has to be done, and so I figured I reconciled with myself that giving up this passion for helping children. That maybe if I could help the mothers, I'd also be helping the children. So. I at that time the Violence Against Women Act had come out in 1894, and I knew I wanted to be a specialized prosecutor in the domestic violence unit, and I did, and it was wonderful. And I missed Baltimore City. I'm so nostalgic about it, but my friends were still prosecutors. So like, yeah, that that year really remember the good parts. And but what was happening at the time was because we had all these specialized units, policymakers, and other people who impacted how practitioners went about implementing some of the best thinking around domestic violence and sexual assault. The practitioners couldn't do. I was like, "That sounds great on paper. That sounds great in a statute, but like I can't do that. And so I wanted to be a part of that. So I've had a really fortunate career that I worked at the local level, and I was actually practicing, you know, law to help survivors with domestic violence and sexual assault. Then I went to the national arena. Then I went back down to the local level in Austin, where I was the family violence director for Travis County, and then now I'm back in the national scene for the past 11 years, and I feel like I've really had the best of both worlds because theory without practice is just theory, and that doesn't help people. And so that's kind of yeah my story.

Erin Geiger: 6:20

My gosh, incredible! You've done so, so much, and yeah, the foster piece I didn't realize. So I don't know if you remember, but I'm one of 20. So my parents had eight of us biologically, and then they adopted 12 kiddos, and and then you know, so I grew up also because they were also foster parents. So I grew up with the foster care system, you know, like I had to foster kids in and out of our house and home inspection, like the whole thing, you know, and so that's near and dear to my heart. So that's that's interesting that that's kind of your start, you know, yeah. And so, well, I

Unknown: 6:55

was a RA at a facility in New York, upstate New York, during college, and that just kind of those kids were amazing, and that's where I learned that bureaucracies don't serve people. Yes, I wanted to be a disruptor, and I also wanted to be a helper because those kids were just brilliant, and they just needed that.

Erin Geiger: 7:16

Yeah, and how did you make that connection? Right, because it's tough work what you do, right? And so back, you know, prosecuting back in Baltimore all the way through today, it's heavy, heavy work. So how, what does it ask of you personally, professionally, and how do you kind of like, how do you march through all of that throughout your day? Because you have a beautiful family, you have other things going on in your, you know, it's a. How do you navigate?

Unknown: 7:44

You know, I think it's because I don't think too much about it. You know, like I said, I think now talking to you, like my whole life's been kind of haphazard. I always knew I wanted children too, so so I wasn't sure how they were going to come or who they were going to come with, but I always wanted children and I always wanted boys for some reason, and I think I know the reason. They balance me, right? Because like I am very much progressive, very feminist oriented, right? And they balance me. We are testing nature nurture every single day, but you know it is very heavy work. I am not good at boundaries. I am today years old working with therapy on on how to do that. I come from a long line of civil servants. So I hear my dad. He's he was a judge. My mother was a not a politician. She was in a she worked for the Department of Health and Human Services for the state of Maryland, and was a high-ranking director. And we've always just had this thing like you serve, you help, but they never really tell you how to take care of yourself in the meantime, right? Because being a servant leader does take a lot. It takes a lot of your personal time, but I think the children have saved me because children will take you outside of yourself. You know, you can't work 60 hours a week when you've got to go to the basketball game and then the birthday party and the this and that. So I would also say my girlfriends. I have these cohorts that meet different needs at different times, and they have really kept me grounded and sane, and yet fueled my passion when appropriate and pulled me back when appropriate. And I feel really, really fortunate with that. I see so many women who don't have close friendships with other women, and it makes me sad because it's so fruitful and it's so beneficial. Yeah.

Erin Geiger: 9:52

Yeah. No, I I see that as well, and it's like, and you only need a few, you know, a few yeah solid solid friendships there. Yeah, and I also have a. I'm a boy mom with two boys, you know, so I understand completely what you're saying.

Unknown: 10:06

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we we I remember very clearly once it was Halloween. We were in Austin. The boys were I don't know three and six, and I was like, oh, what are we going to be as a family? You know, should we do superheroes? And my oldest son said, "Yeah, I'll be Superman. And the younger brother can be Batman, and Dad can be I don't know, you know, like Green Lantern. And he's like, "Oh, Mom, I'm sorry, they're gonna have to be a Disney princess because there are no girl superheroes. And I completely almost lost my mind. Like their dad was like, "Don't hurt them, and they got a full education on all the female superheroes. You know, but you know, it's just funny. Yeah, they they grew up with me, and yet they would say something like that. So, yeah,

Erin Geiger: 11:00

I imagine that moment would be like if you had a soundtrack, it would be like a record scratching at that point.

Unknown: 11:06

Exactly, like my whole face was like what?

Erin Geiger: 11:12

Like, oh, we need a conversation. Let's sit down here. Yeah,

Unknown: 11:16

that happened to. Do you remember the the Valentine's Day, the fairy tale ball, where the boys are knights, the moms are princesses, and I was like,"Oh, I could be Joan of Arc, and we could match. And he was like,"Absolutely not. It's like you'll be a Disney princess like all of the other moms, and I was like, "Oh. And when I post that on Facebook, it was so interesting because, like, you know, all of our Texas friends are like, "Oh, that's yeah, the fairy tale. All my friends on the East Coast were like, "What happened to you?

Erin Geiger: 11:52

I know it's so true, and I was like, "Oh, fairy tale ball, it's so cute. But also, and then it was weird. Do you remember part of it was the girls had to pick the shoe of the boys. Do you remember? This is part of it. They yes, the little girls, like all the boys, for some reason put their shoes in a I don't know in a basket or something, and then the girls need to pick a shoe out of the boys and go like bring it to the boy. It was so weird.

Unknown: 12:16

Don't remember. I probably blacked that out. You

Erin Geiger: 12:18

blocked it out. You're like I can only deal with the princess part, right? Right,

Unknown: 12:22

right. I was like,"What is the cheapest Disney princess costume?

Erin Geiger: 12:26

I know exactly. You're like done. So you mentioned earlier, like you were like, "I wanted to be a disruptor. Like I see things, you know, aren't you know shouldn't be the the way that they are. So, like, how did you come upon that realization, and what steps did you take where you're like, okay, there is a systemic problem here that needs to change, and how how did you identify that and find your place? Because it's you can't take on the ocean, right? And so it's like, how did you find like your place of like what what I can impact within what I'm seeing here?

Unknown: 12:59

So I'll give you two examples: one on the micro level, on the macro level. So, on the micro level, I remember having a case. It was going to be a trial, and the victim failed to appear. And I say victim because in the criminal legal system, that's the word. But in the movement work, we say survivor. But so anyway, the victim didn't appear, and at that time, like 9697, we prosecutors were really going forward without the victim, using an exception to the hearsay rule. So I wanted the police officer to testify so that I could get in the evidence, make my case, you know, all done. Yeah. So I wanted to approach him. I said,"Okay, so she's failed to appear, and you're going to testify. And he says, "Well, no, because if she doesn't care to be here, I don't care. And at that level of apathy, I I I was so shocked. I mean, I was almost shocked into sobriety of like, what are you talking about? Like, you are a sworn officer, and I am a prosecutor, and I am telling you that you are going to, and you've been subpoenaed to this fight. And he was just so adamant. And you know, my general approach is to just meet people where they are and to have conversations about like why this is important, this that and the other, and he was unmoved. So basically, I had to say, "Well, I'm just going to call your commander, and then you know we'll deal with it. He was like, "Never. So, you know, he went on to testify, but I realized, oh, there is some education that needs to happen here, and so I created a brochure for all of my officers of like, hey, this is what we're doing, and this is why we're doing it, and this is why it's important for you because victims may not show up because he's threatened her, you know, and so that's her safety plan, and so we as stakeholders and criminal legal actors, you know, need to step in the gap, and so. So that was kind of like my first realization of like, oh, everybody's not on the same page, and so how do I how do I move them to to do the right thing? How I got into making an impact on the policy arena. I was at a conference for prosecutors, And the two presenters were fantastic, and they were starting to lose the crowd a little bit because it was mostly male, mostly men of color, and they were two women of color. So a typical facilitator or training tool is to move into your personal stories to gain empathy and to make the lesson apply, well, that landed flat too. I mean, it was so bad at 1.1. of the participants, who was a prosecutor, by the way, said he came from a long line of Ku Klux Klan members and speared off some stuff that was terrible. So at the end, I went up to both presenters and I said, "I am so sorry that my colleagues, who I don't even know, but in the prosecution field, were so rude and disruptive, and I apologize for them. I enjoyed it, and I really appreciated hearing their stories. And I became fast friends with them, and and the one of them became my mentor, and when she found out there was a policy and training and technical assistance position, she introduced me to her mentor, who is a big name in the movement, Barbara Hart, who is the legal director of the Pennsylvania Coalition Against Domestic Violence, and they were the first state domestic violence coalition, and they were the first state to institute protection orders, which that's kind of you know coming full circle. That's how I got interested in the in the area of law, and here I am working for the very first coalition to to begin protection orders. So, you know, you know, change takes time, and it is a long and dusty road, particularly when we talk about advancing human rights. And so, you know, patience, coalition building have really been my two greatest tools.

Erin Geiger: 17:20

Yeah, that's incredible how you can also kind of hold your own. So you mentioned policy. So you have shaped policy guidelines like yourself, and we talked about earlier state, local, national. Knowing you, I kind of know the answer to this question. I'm going to ask it anyway. How do you hold that authority? Like, there's there's a lot of women listening who are trying to figure that out. You know, they're in these rooms where it's male dominated, not people of color. They maybe you know, and so and it's like, and it's this is the stakes are high. Like this, you know, I can kind of laugh with what I do with like marketing. No one's dying, you know. It's fine, you know. But like with what you're doing, like it's that's not the case. So, you know, how do you kind of like hold the that authority in those rooms where you know you're you're not surrounded by immediate supporters. Like, how do you navigate that?

Unknown: 18:27

That is hard because again, it's situational in contexts, right? I will say I had a little bit of a leg up because I never knew I didn't have authority. I went to an all-girls school that in Baltimore, that just you know, from seventh to 12th grade, I was the only black girl in my class, ninth through 12th grade. But I was never othered. I never felt like I couldn't, shouldn't, wouldn't. Like literally, the sky was the limit for me. And I had friends who were smart and brilliant and powerful in their own right. So it just never-I mean, women were like not weaklings in my family or my friend group ever. I mean, sometimes now even still, like I'm in all of the women I get to be in the room with. Like, like they're awesome, and like so they propel me to have more confidence and to do what I need to do, and I think kind of like the mantra with all of my friends, work or personal, is like we support you 110. We'll tell you when we think that you're wrong, but like we'll never embarrass you, you know, in public. But like, and I think that kind of transparency and honesty helps you grow, so that you do have that confidence when you're in other rooms. Like no one's trying to gas me up 24/7. They're just like, "Hey, that was great, but this A, B, C, and D. You know what I mean? But I think I've had two really startling experiences that I think I just kind of cut my teeth. You know, I, I, and I learned from it. You know that be prepared and know your stuff. And if you are prepared, no one can take that from you. People try to shake you. You know, when I went to Montgomery County State's Attorney's Office, they were unaccustomed to having lateral hires, and so the defense bar tried to haze me all the time, as I thought I was in no. And I was like, no. And I was battle tested, you know. And so you know, just keep going, like just keep moving. And I remember we would have cases on Friday on our docket, and this one attorney wouldn't take any of my deals. He said they're all trials. I said that's totally fine. I can try five cases in a day, and we got to the fourth one, and that was a guilty. We called the fifth case, and he was like, "Well, I don't know why. You know, you're just going to win that too. I was like, "I told you that at 9o'clock, but I I am remembering now in law school I did mock trial, and I was shy, and but I was prepared, and the greatest advice I've ever been given was by a professor, our our professor, and he said, "People are always going to underestimate you because you're a woman, because you're a black woman, and you're kind. You have a gentle spirit, but when you get into the courtroom, you know what you're doing, and you will win every time because people have underestimated you, and that's their flaw. So I think to answer your question more fully, it has also come with age. I can't say that I've always been confident or a presence in a room. I think I've also I'm pretty steadfast in my purpose, and I think my purpose is righteous, and so willing willing to go to bat for what I believe in, and that has propelled me to be in some rooms that I I I feel very privileged to be in, and I hope that every time I'm in that room or at that table, I'm advancing the rights of women.

Erin Geiger: 22:25

Yeah,

Unknown: 22:26

yeah.

Erin Geiger: 22:27

To that end, can you? My next question pertains to the organization you're at right now. Before I get to that, would you mind giving us the overview of the organization you work with, what the mission is, what what you're all about, it would be really helpful.

Unknown: 22:44

Sure. So Ujima, the National Center on Violence Against Women in the Black Community, is one of three racial and ethnic resource centers that's funded by the Family Violence Prevention and Services Act. So we partner a lot with our our other resource centers, which is Esperanza United, which addresses domestic violence and sexual assault in the Latina community, and also API GBV, which is Asian Pacific Institute on Gender-Based Violence. I always get their name wrong because it's so long. But so we three resource centers work together to make sure that survivors of color and marginalized communities actually have access to the same resources and services and responses that they are entitled to, that they are deserving of, so that they can live full and healthy lives free from violence. So we started Ujima. Karma Kotman, our CEO, and Jennifer Hooker, our CFO, started Ujima in 2015. We incubated it under the DC Coalition Against Domestic Violence at the time, where Karma was the executive director and I was the deputy director. And our whole mission is to see a world where Black women and girls are free from violence. You probably have heard a lot in the media lately about domestic violence homicides and suicides within the Black community, and we accomplish this through four

things: 24:10

research. We have a really robust research team that, from schools and universities all over the country, we do this with training and technical assistance. So, for example, I was just at the conference on crimes against women in Dallas, Texas, where I did two workshops, and we also do outreach and engagement. So, we've been to the Essence Festival a couple of times and had tabled events and had a kiosk, and we also do this through policy work. So, we do, as you mentioned, local, state, and national policy work are three main federal bills that we work on constantly. Are the Violence Against Women Act reauthorization, Family Violence Prevention Services Act, and the Victims of Crime Act?

Erin Geiger: 24:51

Okay, so so needed, and I just want to shine a light on that for just a little bit because. To those that don't know, you know, you don't know what you don't know. Why we need organizations that are dedicated to women of color, women marginalized communities? Like, what have you seen yourself? You've practiced for decades. So, what have you seen yourself about, like, in regards to justice and accountability when you're looking at the access and how women of color are handled versus those that women that are not of color handled throughout. Like, why do we need these? I know, but why do we need these organizations that represent women of color in marginalized communities?

Unknown: 25:39

Sure, culturally specific services and responses are needed because we need to make sure that we're keeping everybody safe. And what we know is that you know when we historically we've talked about culturally specific services. For example, in a shelter, they're like, "Oh, well, make sure that you have sleeping caps for Black women, or you know, make sure that you have staff that look like the people that are coming through your doors. And while that's all well and good, it's just it's just kind of a drop in the bucket. I mean, so for some communities, you have language access. If I am being harmed and I need help, whether that's law enforcement, shelter, or going to the courts, I need somebody who can speak my language. And you know, the African continent has over you know hundreds of dialects and and different languages. So there's that. As an immigrant, I may not be so willing to use any of those resources if I feel like there is a consequence to asking for help for the Black community. As we have known historically, there's tension between using formal government structures because there can be consequences doing to bias or whatever lack of training, what have you, whatever you're bringing to the table. So you know, for example, we know that since the advent, let's say, of the Violence Against Women Act, that there have been advances made, programming, etc. However, we know that Black women don't use them; they are not welcoming. There are consequences to calling law enforcement on your abusive partner who may be black. There are disparities in how they're treated, not only as a first response, but also once if they're arrested and they go to the jail, and then through the bail process, and then even at sentencing or you know adjudication, so there's a little bit of a chilling effect in the way that that that that's been handled in the courts. We actually at Ajima have a procedural fairness curriculum for courts and court personnel to make sure that people are treated fairly. You know, I'm not saying kindness or you know white glove treatment. I'm just saying what we know from research is that people feel like if they have been treated fairly, they're more likely to follow court's orders. So it's in our best interest to make sure that people are treated with dignity, they're treated with respect, that they understand what the processes are, so that they will be more compliant, and we can provide protection in in the face of an order for a survivor. So you know, you know, there's challenges with shelters with black women being treated unfairly. You can't bring your sons. You know, you can't bring children under over a certain age, you can't practice a certain religion because it, you know, it offends other people. You know, I mean, it's just there have just been so many things where the systems and the services that have been set up are not set up in a flexible way to allow Black survivors to just be. There is a case that I talk about often. I believe it's in Ohio, where a woman came to get a protective order and she was late, and the judge said, "It's over. It's dismissed. You weren't here. And she's wailing, just wail. I mean, I can't imagine being in that much danger. That you know something like something like that will have such a detrimental impact on you that you just full of emotion and just wailing, and so she left the courtroom. She was in the hallway and she was still wailing, and the judge came off the bench, went into the hallway, put his hands on her, brought her back into the courtroom, found her in contempt and detained her.

Erin Geiger: 29:44

Oh my god!

Unknown: 29:45

And it took the intervention of another judge. I think a day, couple days later, where she was finally released. Now, in that time frame, she could have lost her job for not appearing if she had children. We don't know where, you know. You expect to be going home. We don't. She can't call anybody, you know, at the moment. So we don't know what happened to her children. We don't know if she had some health issues. Maybe she needed medication that she didn't have access to. So it's like this cascading effect that can really impact people who don't have the same access and privilege to things, we also talk a lot about you know there's this double bind that domestic violence survivors of color live in, right? So number one, just as a woman who says,"Hey, Biden being abused, well, what'd you do still 2026? What'd you do to provoke him? Or like, well, what was your what was your part in that, right? So, like, there's already that credibility issue, and then we also know that you know women of color tend not to be as believed, or you know, have the same level of credibility as white women, and so that puts us more in danger and less of open to trying to access resources now, can you imagine that young lady that was pulled in and detained by that judge? She told two people, I'm sure, about well, she told a newspaper, right? So, like, like that, like so. What is the likelihood that somebody else is going to want to go and get a protection order, right? Because that could happen, right? So, all of those are the reasons why it's really important for us to talk with people about the needs of, and I'm going to say for Ujima of Black women and girls. Why are we missing and murdered? Why do we, when we go to the place we're not believed? Why, when there's a domestic violence fatality review team doing a round robin, and every affinity group is like, "Well, she didn't contact us. Well, she didn't contact us. Well, you know, she didn't contact us. And then they close the book and say, "Well, there's nothing we could have done. And then I say, "Oh, wait a minute, law enforcement. Why do you think she didn't reach out to you? Why didn't she call 911? Hey, shelter, why didn't she come to you? Hey, hospital, why didn't she come to get her her bruises taken care of, or you know, check to see if she had a carotid dissection because he strangled her? Why don't black women feel comfortable coming to you for help? Let's fix that. And so, yeah. I mean, I guess that's the answer. Like, they're just the myriad of reasons.

Erin Geiger: 32:26

Yeah, I wanted to make sure we highlight that because that is the reality. And I think there's many people that don't aren't aware. And even smaller things, like I was coming home from dinner the other night with two girlfriends, and you know, one's Hispanic, but you know, two of us were white, and her car broke down, just like stopped. I don't know if you remember it in Austin, and we were coming off of Mopac, you know, which is the main major freeway. So we were not in the safe area. Like we were exiting, and we weren't safe because cars were exiting at high speeds, and it was at night, and like, oh my gosh, these people cannot see us, right? But you know, my friend was like, "Well, we need to call the police, and you know, and so we're like, "Okay, and so, but you know, for me, I you know, it wasn't like I it it occurred to me that not everybody would have been like, "Let's call the police. You know, like that's helpful. That's safety. They're gonna get us out of this situation. I actually did think about that. I was just like, gosh, that's not a reality for a lot of people. You know, especially those of of color. Like we tell my my brother and my sister are both black, and my parents have had to have that that education with them of like, this is the way the world is, you know, and you know there are there is privilege and there are different, you know, societal norms, you know, and everything, and so that's why these organizations are are needed 100% So I just wanted to make sure that we highlighted that.

Unknown: 33:59

Sure, and it's nuanced, right? I mean, we have the debate all the time, like what's more pervasive, class or race, right? And it's situational. It depends. So you know, sometimes in my in my lectures, I'll say, you know, if I'm in my mink coat in a Mercedes and diamond down blinged out, and I'm driving through, you know a sundown town, do you think they'll care that I'm a lawyer or that you know I have all these accouterments of wealth? Absolutely not. You know what I mean? Right. So yeah. So and it gets and I think what's challenging one of the things that we're addressing, trying to address, is that there's kind of this school of thought that it doesn't matter if you're culturally specific as long as you're trauma informed, and that is not true. And so you can be very good about knowing the dynamics of intimate partner violence and and all those things and the trauma that that causes and the aftereffects and the collateral. Consequences, but when you talk about someone who's also had to deal with racism and sexism, which is the combined term is misogynoir, and how systems have oppressed you or not treated you fairly, compounded with the violence that you're experiencing at home is really complicated, and I think people look for the shortcuts, right? Like when we're overwhelmed, our brains do these things called schemas because that's what's familiar, that's what's easy, and I get that. And so, what we encourage people to do is dig a little deeper. If you're in a helping profession or a service-oriented profession, you're gonna have to dig dig a little deeper.

Erin Geiger: 35:42

Yeah, you cannot stay on the surface. It's not where it is. Yeah, exactly. When you think of, you know, we're going through all of this, you know, experience that you've had over the decades. How has it impacted you? Like, you you were at the beginning, right? And then who you are now? Like, how have you sort of evolved or changed? What feels different to you now?

Unknown: 36:10

Yeah, that is a really hard question. I mean, I think personally, like age, I'm more tired. I'm tired of having the same conversations for 30 years, like it's physically exhausting. Like I was having a conversation with a congressional member, and I was trying to say, like, you do understand that the attacks on women are strategic, and you have to look at them together. So, do you write? firearms, limiting reproductive options, limiting educational pursuits, keeping us out of the job market-like all those things separately look like you know. Oh well, that's just this or that's just that, but all together, that's to keep us disenfranchised and and and to make sure that we don't have a modicum of power or choice or autonomy. And he was just like,"What? I was like, "What? You know, like like what? And so, yeah. I mean, I I am surprised. Q said it a little bit earlier about like what people don't know, and what people are like willfully ignorant about. And I feel like kind of when I started, there was this motion to be intellectually curious, to be helpers, to be servant leaders, and now it just kind of feels flat. Just, I mean, I feel like everyone's just trying to survive, so there's not a lot of room for passionate, active, active. and and movement. So I mean, I'm a little sad sometimes because the work has become so hard, hard in a way that it wasn't before. Like it was new, and you were navigating it. And this just feels like I'm not going to say hopeless. I won't say that, but a lot of my colleagues have, because of delayed funding and and and withdrawal of funding. Like we had $5 million terminated from us last year. A lot of programs are closing their doors, and so that's the first time in my career I've really experienced that on this level. So yeah, I think right now I just feel tired. I'm excited by the Gen Z leaders coming up, and and we really do believe in mentorship. I think Gen Z and you know the millennials have like a whole different mindset. I've learned so much about self care from from Gen Z, and you know keeping my mind open to different ways of doing things. And I think yeah, I got to tell you, I was really-I have been down about this, like you know, gosh! And my mother gave me like the best advice, and she said, "You know, the way you do the work may not survive. You'll just do it in a different way.

Erin Geiger: 39:36

Yeah,

Unknown: 39:38

and I really appreciate that perspective, and maybe it's time for the work to pivot and do in a different way, but I'm still here. Ujima's still here, so we're just gonna take day by day.

Erin Geiger: 39:53

Yeah, and that was the next thing on my mind was, is there any hope? You know, or do you do you feel hopeful about you know? Is there anything you want to mention in your line of work that actually does give you hope? Are there so much that's tumultuous in the world right now, like you're saying? So, is it what is it that you're working on that gives you hope for the future?

Unknown: 40:20

Hope. Also, I did a workshop on culturally specific strategies for legal assistance, and the people in the room were. It was an eight a.m. workshop, and you know, like maybe 20 people came, and they were so generous with their compliments about how needed this was. It was so important. One lady said,"Everybody at this conference ought to be in here, and you know, you never really get a report card, you know. And so that that was really hopeful to me. Like, okay, the work I'm doing is still relevant, right? The other piece is that on the side, in my spare time, I still help survivors of domestic violence, and so I don't litigate because I just don't have the time to do that. But I help navigate, so I'll help them get an attorney. I help safety plan. I'll connect them to resources, get them attorney. I'll do some handholding, you know, all those things, and I usually try to do no more than two or three women a year. And I think the past month I've helped five. Wow! And just knowing that I made something a little bit easier for somebody who's going through crisis gives me hope. You know, I think that we can change as a human species. I got to tell you, I know it's not particularly popular, but I love seeing that women are waiting to get married longer and are are trying to decide whether or not they want kids. Like, I think that that has been; those have been options that haven't necessarily been real options for women because they bought into the whatever. Not I don't know what to call it, but yeah, I I love that they're choosing that and unapologetically like that gives me hope. Is that you know when we have more standards for ourselves and boundaries for ourselves, other people will respect them, and that is going to decrease violence against women, right? And so, you know, yeah, I I think it's amazing. I have so many cousins and friends who are you know in that age group, and they're just like, yeah, I don't know, like it's not really that important. Where you know, for our generation, like the the pressure to be married and to have kids and to have a career and to have a house and the dog and you have to cook real meals and what do you mean you gave my grandchildren microwave meals like are you crazy you know I mean we were just having a debate last night about parenting and I was like, "It's a lot, and I think that younger women are paying attention, and they're like,

Erin Geiger: 43:10

"Yeah, yeah. It's like I don't, and even I see it with my mom because she's been, you know, raising kids for like five, six decades, right, and how she's evolved, and I'll tease her sometimes. I'm like, I never was able to have a TV in my room, and I never, you know, whatever. Look at these kids and stuff. And like when I was going to move in with my husband, you know, we were just dating and we were young, and then it was the whole marriage thing came into question. Well, you're not married, and you know, and all of that. And now, like my parent, I'm like people are shacking up right. You know, so I tell my mom, I'm like, what the heck? And she's like, Erin, if I did not evolve, you know, over five, six decades with the times and what is going on, like I cannot parent today how I parented you. You know, like it's completely different. And so, you know, she's a pretty liberal woman, and I also grew up in a very matriarchal family and kept my maiden name, like the whole thing, you know. And so it was like she's she was always she was funny when I was wanted to do cheer. I think I did do cheer for one year in a Catholic school, but when I went to public school, she was like,"Why do you want to be in the sidelines cheering for other people? You know, and she's like, and I was like, "Dang, mom! And no, she's cheerleaders out there, I know it's a sport, and those are like incredible athletes. But it was just something that she said, you know, and I was just like, oh, you know. And so she's like, why aren't you in there? You know, people could cheer for you, whatever. And so it was, yeah, it's interesting. So I agree, you know, with what with what you're saying. Oh my gosh, like we're already at time, and I just could talk forever. If people want to connect with you online, what's the best way for them to do so?

Unknown: 44:45

Yeah, so just go to our website and look for the info email info at ujima community all one word.org, and it'll get to me. the The team will will filter it right onto me, or 18447. Seven Ujima U J I M A, and our front office will will forward me the message, and I'll give you a jingle back.

Erin Geiger: 45:09

Awesome! And then one super fun question that I ask everybody at the end, just because I love music over here, is if you could listen to one music artist for the rest of your life, who would

Unknown: 45:20

it be? Whoa!

Erin Geiger: 45:22

I know that's kind of mean.

Unknown: 45:27

Wow, that is a really, really good question. Because just yesterday, I was waiting for our CFO to come on our Zoom meeting, and I was listening to something completely inappropriate. She started cracking up. Okay, can I check my Spotify real quick? Yes, please. Oh golly, because of the

Erin Geiger: 45:47

lists and reports that they put out. You know, they had just put out that whatever 20-year something thing, and they shows you like the first song you listen to, and it's so interesting to me to see.

Unknown: 45:59

Okay, I'm gonna go with somebody I just discovered, and the only reason I'm going to say this person is because it has like this calming effect on me. And in fact, my cousin, who's like way more cultured than I, she was like, "How did you discover him? I've been listening to him for a long time, and I was like, I don't know, social media, something, something, and she was just so surprised that I knew who that was, Monrovia. He's like a he's like a folk art. I don't know how to describe him, but he's a black folk artist, folk song artist. But it's just calming.

Erin Geiger: 46:42

I'll have to look him up. I have not heard of him. Okay. Yeah. I am. I need calm in my life. Yeah.

Unknown: 46:48

Yeah. And it's so pure. Like, what is that you're listening to? And I'm like, Hey, I'm Zen right now. Leave me alone.

Erin Geiger: 46:56

Yes.

Unknown: 46:58

Right. Right. I

Erin Geiger: 46:59

love that. Okay. I'm gonna check that out. That's awesome. Thank you again for taking the time, Greta. This is such an important conversation, and I want to continue it with you for sure. So I really appreciate your time today.

Unknown: 47:12

Well, I appreciate you. You have carte blanche. Call me. I'll come back anytime you want. All right. Thank

Erin Geiger: 47:18

you.

Unknown: 47:19

You're welcome. Have a great day.